[asdf-devel] Some points raised
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/93a4b06a66b0b335 1- The new configuration and file searching mechanism is causing some grief. 2- Lack *-user mailing list and need of subscription for questions. Is there a sufficiently large comunity here and do we want to open the list? I would ignore the other complains of a user that woke up with a bad temper. Juanjo -- Instituto de Física Fundamental, CSIC c/ Serrano, 113b, Madrid 28006 (Spain) http://juanjose.garciaripoll.googlepages.com
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -3:49 AM, Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/93a4b06a66b0b335
1- The new configuration and file searching mechanism is causing some grief.
Unfortunately, the author's complaints are insufficiently clear for me to provide any assistance. Plus I'm not an authority on the configuration languages. If anyone would like to supply bits of configuration hinting --- snippets that handle common tasks --- I am willing to undertake to get them integrated into the manual. Looking over the manual itself, I think it would help if it provided a clearer statement of what you get if you simply leave ASDF-OUTPUT-TRANSLATIONS unconfigured and let the defaults rule. It's possible that this is buried in there, but I had a little trouble winkling it out. Possibly a FAQ entry. One common task, it seems to me, would be to say "I would like to supply a library that is a source tree that contains multiple system definitions. How do I provide with this library a configuration snippet that will allow a user to find all the system definitions in this subtree? How do I direct users to modify their ASDF configuration to point to their installed copy of my source tree and incorporate the configuration snippet that I have supplied?" Extra credit (this comes up for me): How do I supply a configuration snippet for a source tree that contains many .asd files, but also contains a big mess of Java code? Said Java code will create a very dense thicket of subdirectories, which can cause ASDF to go out to lunch searching for asd files. Can I provide in my configuration something like find's '-prune' directive to avoid traversing these subtrees? If anyone has great instructions for this, I will be delighted to incorporate them.
2- Lack *-user mailing list and need of subscription for questions. Is there a sufficiently large comunity here and do we want to open the list?
With all due respect, opening a list is pretty much never a good idea. It's just asking for spam. Per my response to the above complainer, I think it would be great if there was a help web site that 1. Allowed OpenID login --- no need for new accounts 2. Served up questions to the interested through email digest and RSS. As a potential question-answerer, I don't have time to log in to such a web site. I would need to have the questions pushed at me. Is there any such existing software that we could adopt?
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -3:49 AM, Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/93a4b06a66b0b335
1- The new configuration and file searching mechanism is causing some grief.
As a user, I'll just note that I browsed the manual, didn't understand much, and for now I'm just using: (asdf:enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility :centralize-lisp-binaries t :default-toplevel-directory (merge-pathnames (format nil ".cache/common-lisp/~A/" (hostname)) (user-homedir-pathname) nil) :include-per-user-information nil ;; :map-all-source-files ??? :source-to-target-mappings nil) and asdf:*central-registry* until I have time to learn how to do it in the new way. So I would say that indeed, the documentation could be improved.
2- Lack *-user mailing list and need of subscription for questions. Is there a sufficiently large comunity here and do we want to open the list?
With all due respect, opening a list is pretty much never a good idea. It's just asking for spam. Per my response to the above complainer, I think it would be great if there was a help web site that
1. Allowed OpenID login --- no need for new accounts
2. Served up questions to the interested through email digest and RSS. As a potential question-answerer, I don't have time to log in to such a web site. I would need to have the questions pushed at me.
Is there any such existing software that we could adopt?
I'm using gmane, and the overhead to subscribe is really minimal: just reply to a message gmane sends back the first time you post... -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -9:07 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -3:49 AM, Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/93a4b06a66b0b335
1- The new configuration and file searching mechanism is causing some grief.
As a user, I'll just note that I browsed the manual, didn't understand much, and for now I'm just using:
(asdf:enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility :centralize-lisp-binaries t :default-toplevel-directory (merge-pathnames (format nil ".cache/common-lisp/~A/" (hostname)) (user-homedir-pathname) nil) :include-per-user-information nil ;; :map-all-source-files ??? :source-to-target-mappings nil)
and asdf:*central-registry* until I have time to learn how to do it in the new way.
So I would say that indeed, the documentation could be improved.
This is pretty much the same for me. I had a workaround for configuration in ASDF 1: 1. ASDF-BINARY-LOCATIONS worked for me (decentralized binaries) and 2. I developed a limited clone of `find` in portable common lisp called ASD-FINDER that you point at a directory and it returns a list of all the subdirectories that contain .asd files (and it supports prune). Then, for each of my projects, I had a configuration function (e.g., PROJECT-FOO), which would invoke the ASD-finder to set up asdf:*central-registry* appropriately for that project. I would start up lisp, invoke the project function for the project I was working on at the moment, and then be ready to go. I haven't yet determined what's the appropriate way to replace this for ASDF2, so still use it.
2- Lack *-user mailing list and need of subscription for questions. Is there a sufficiently large comunity here and do we want to open the list?
With all due respect, opening a list is pretty much never a good idea. It's just asking for spam. Per my response to the above complainer, I think it would be great if there was a help web site that
1. Allowed OpenID login --- no need for new accounts
2. Served up questions to the interested through email digest and RSS. As a potential question-answerer, I don't have time to log in to such a web site. I would need to have the questions pushed at me.
Is there any such existing software that we could adopt?
I'm using gmane, and the overhead to subscribe is really minimal: just reply to a message gmane sends back the first time you post...
So should we just set up an asdf-help mailing list?
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -9:07 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -3:49 AM, Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/93a4b06a66b0b335
1- The new configuration and file searching mechanism is causing some grief.
As a user, I'll just note that I browsed the manual, didn't understand much, and for now I'm just using:
(asdf:enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility :centralize-lisp-binaries t :default-toplevel-directory (merge-pathnames (format nil ".cache/common-lisp/~A/" (hostname)) (user-homedir-pathname) nil) :include-per-user-information nil ;; :map-all-source-files ??? :source-to-target-mappings nil)
and asdf:*central-registry* until I have time to learn how to do it in the new way.
So I would say that indeed, the documentation could be improved.
This is pretty much the same for me. I had a workaround for configuration in ASDF 1:
1. ASDF-BINARY-LOCATIONS worked for me (decentralized binaries) and
2. I developed a limited clone of `find` in portable common lisp called ASD-FINDER that you point at a directory and it returns a list of all the subdirectories that contain .asd files (and it supports prune). Then, for each of my projects, I had a configuration function (e.g., PROJECT-FOO), which would invoke the ASD-finder to set up asdf:*central-registry* appropriately for that project. I would start up lisp, invoke the project function for the project I was working on at the moment, and then be ready to go. I haven't yet determined what's the appropriate way to replace this for ASDF2, so still use it.
Same here. I've got a pair of functions ASDF-RESCAN-PACKAGES and UPDATE-ASDF-REGISTRY to load and update a cache for asdf:*central-registry* in the ~/.*rc.lisp files. Otherwise for specific projects, I just build asdf:*central-registry* explicitely.
2- Lack *-user mailing list and need of subscription for questions. Is there a sufficiently large comunity here and do we want to open the list?
With all due respect, opening a list is pretty much never a good idea. It's just asking for spam. Per my response to the above complainer, I think it would be great if there was a help web site that
1. Allowed OpenID login --- no need for new accounts
2. Served up questions to the interested through email digest and RSS. As a potential question-answerer, I don't have time to log in to such a web site. I would need to have the questions pushed at me.
Is there any such existing software that we could adopt?
I'm using gmane, and the overhead to subscribe is really minimal: just reply to a message gmane sends back the first time you post...
So should we just set up an asdf-help mailing list?
For me it would be an easy and good enough solution, yes. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -9:26 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -9:07 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -3:49 AM, Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll wrote:
....
2- Lack *-user mailing list and need of subscription for questions. Is there a sufficiently large comunity here and do we want to open the list?
With all due respect, opening a list is pretty much never a good idea. It's just asking for spam. Per my response to the above complainer, I think it would be great if there was a help web site that
1. Allowed OpenID login --- no need for new accounts
2. Served up questions to the interested through email digest and RSS. As a potential question-answerer, I don't have time to log in to such a web site. I would need to have the questions pushed at me.
Is there any such existing software that we could adopt?
I'm using gmane, and the overhead to subscribe is really minimal: just reply to a message gmane sends back the first time you post...
So should we just set up an asdf-help mailing list?
For me it would be an easy and good enough solution, yes.
What's the protocol for potential help providers? How do we scan an asdf-help group of this type without (1) further clogging our inboxes; (2) having to explicitly visit a web site? Is there, e.g., an RSS-based solution so that we might, for example, glance over recent requests for help while scanning our blog subscriptions in Google Reader? best, r
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -9:26 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -9:07 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -3:49 AM, Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll wrote:
....
2- Lack *-user mailing list and need of subscription for questions. Is there a sufficiently large comunity here and do we want to open the list?
With all due respect, opening a list is pretty much never a good idea. It's just asking for spam. Per my response to the above complainer, I think it would be great if there was a help web site that
1. Allowed OpenID login --- no need for new accounts
2. Served up questions to the interested through email digest and RSS. As a potential question-answerer, I don't have time to log in to such a web site. I would need to have the questions pushed at me.
Is there any such existing software that we could adopt?
I'm using gmane, and the overhead to subscribe is really minimal: just reply to a message gmane sends back the first time you post...
So should we just set up an asdf-help mailing list?
For me it would be an easy and good enough solution, yes.
What's the protocol for potential help providers? How do we scan an asdf-help group of this type without (1) further clogging our inboxes; (2) having to explicitly visit a web site?
gmane is a nntp server.
Is there, e.g., an RSS-based solution so that we might, for example, glance over recent requests for help while scanning our blog subscriptions in Google Reader?
There's also http://gwene.org/ to pull back rss to nntp... So you only need gnus to read those message. But I object to rss for two reasons: 1- often the message is not complete, you only get the beginning and you have to go to the web to read the rest. 2- there's no way to answer. At least, with gmane, there's an nntp-to-email back gateway. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -6:08 PM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -9:26 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -9:07 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
On 9/24/10 Sep 24 -3:49 AM, Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll wrote:
....
> 2- Lack *-user mailing list and need of subscription for questions. Is > there a sufficiently large comunity here and do we want to open the list?
With all due respect, opening a list is pretty much never a good idea. It's just asking for spam. Per my response to the above complainer, I think it would be great if there was a help web site that
1. Allowed OpenID login --- no need for new accounts
2. Served up questions to the interested through email digest and RSS. As a potential question-answerer, I don't have time to log in to such a web site. I would need to have the questions pushed at me.
Is there any such existing software that we could adopt?
I'm using gmane, and the overhead to subscribe is really minimal: just reply to a message gmane sends back the first time you post...
So should we just set up an asdf-help mailing list?
For me it would be an easy and good enough solution, yes.
What's the protocol for potential help providers? How do we scan an asdf-help group of this type without (1) further clogging our inboxes; (2) having to explicitly visit a web site?
gmane is a nntp server.
Is there, e.g., an RSS-based solution so that we might, for example, glance over recent requests for help while scanning our blog subscriptions in Google Reader?
There's also http://gwene.org/ to pull back rss to nntp...
So you only need gnus to read those message.
But I object to rss for two reasons:
1- often the message is not complete, you only get the beginning and you have to go to the web to read the rest.
2- there's no way to answer. At least, with gmane, there's an nntp-to-email back gateway.
From the standpoint of a user who sometimes wants help, I would think
Yes, but the advantage of rss is that one can easily scan a large set of things in a single glance in a tool that one runs anyway. I glance at Google Reader at least once a day. I never run gnus, and I have one newsreader window in Thunderbird that I never look at, but am too lazy to delete. This may not matter --- I may be atypical in this --- but I have completely given up on nntp. The only thing broken worse than email on the internet is news ;-) On the other hand, I can see the advantages to myself of an asdf-help mailing list that I have a good excuse never to look at .... ;-) Maybe we should take a straw poll on this mailing list to see what forms of asdf-help delivery would be most likely to get attention from people who are most likely to read. A second question is: is this really necessary for any reason other than making Didier happy, which seems unlikely in any case? What is broken about having people post questions to asdf-devel? Didier's objection to asdf-devel is that he didn't want to sign up for the mailing list. Why would it make him any happier to sign up for asdf-help instead of asdf-devel? the best choice would be something forum like, where I could sign in using OpenID, so I didn't need a new account and password. I just looked at StackOverflow, and there is an asdf tag there, and one can get updates to that tag using RSS. That forum seems to meet Didier's needs --- no new account, no mailing list signup, and all of mine. This URL seems to work: http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag?tagnames=asdf&sort=hot What about making this the official support channel? If that's agreeable, we could list it, as well as the launchpad, in the manual. best, r
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> wrote:
What is broken about having people post questions to asdf-devel? Didier's objection to asdf-devel is that he didn't want to sign up for the mailing list. Why would it make him any happier to sign up for asdf-help instead of asdf-devel?
Probably the current moderation way is too complicated. In some forums the first post is moderated, the rest are not; suscription is not needed.
I just looked at StackOverflow, and there is an asdf tag there, and one can get updates to that tag using RSS. If that's agreeable, we could list it, as well as the launchpad, in the manual.
I would vote for that. This can be read via RSS, a means of communication that I also prefer. I have personally added ASDF and ECL to my reader. Juanjo -- Instituto de Física Fundamental, CSIC c/ Serrano, 113b, Madrid 28006 (Spain) http://juanjose.garciaripoll.googlepages.com
On 9/26/10 Sep 26 -12:28 PM, Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll wrote:
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info <mailto:rpgoldman@sift.info>> wrote:
What is broken about having people post questions to asdf-devel? Didier's objection to asdf-devel is that he didn't want to sign up for the mailing list. Why would it make him any happier to sign up for asdf-help instead of asdf-devel?
Probably the current moderation way is too complicated. In some forums the first post is moderated, the rest are not; suscription is not needed.
I just looked at StackOverflow, and there is an asdf tag there, and one can get updates to that tag using RSS. If that's agreeable, we could list it, as well as the launchpad, in the manual.
I would vote for that. This can be read via RSS, a means of communication that I also prefer. I have personally added ASDF and ECL to my reader.
I have added ASDF to my reader, as well. I'm willing to try to answer some questions there (most, currently, don't seem to be about ASDF itself, but about ASDF-INSTALL, or systems built with ASDF). I don't have any intention of biting off ya mailing list, though, esp since it doesn't seem to make things easier for people with questions. best, r
Robert Goldman <rpgoldman@sift.info> writes:
This may not matter --- I may be atypical in this --- but I have completely given up on nntp. The only thing broken worse than email on the internet is news ;-)
News, like lisp, are older than the Internet, perhaps they will survive it. ;-)
On the other hand, I can see the advantages to myself of an asdf-help mailing list that I have a good excuse never to look at .... ;-)
Maybe we should take a straw poll on this mailing list to see what forms of asdf-help delivery would be most likely to get attention from people who are most likely to read.
A second question is: is this really necessary for any reason other than making Didier happy, which seems unlikely in any case?
What is broken about having people post questions to asdf-devel? Didier's objection to asdf-devel is that he didn't want to sign up for the mailing list. Why would it make him any happier to sign up for asdf-help instead of asdf-devel?
Indeed. I think we should teach him gmane. The advantage of news, is that once you've got your answer, you don't need to further read them, as you do.
From the standpoint of a user who sometimes wants help, I would think the best choice would be something forum like, where I could sign in using OpenID, so I didn't need a new account and password.
From the standpoint of a user (or rather, a newbie), we should have a global reflection and see what can be done for the whole lisp ecosystem.
For now, there are various irc channels, cll, google, mail lists, cliki.net, etc. The common lisp directory tried to centralize things somewhat, but there's nothing that looks like a definitive source.
I just looked at StackOverflow, and there is an asdf tag there, and one can get updates to that tag using RSS.
That forum seems to meet Didier's needs --- no new account, no mailing list signup, and all of mine.
This URL seems to work:
Wehn I go to http://stackoverflow.com, the first thing I see is not CL related, but about Python and Wordpress. (What's this Wordpress, I though the Internet was putting editors out of work).
What about making this the official support channel?
If that's agreeable, we could list it, as well as the launchpad, in the manual.
There are existing channels, and new channels. Why newbies couldn't ask their questions on twitter or facebook? Why oldbies couldn't answer questions on nntp or maillists? What I think would be nice is a multi-modality gateway, with a centralized domain name and web site for best visibility, that would cover Common Lisp and all its ecosystem. We could probably use common-lisp.net as root, integrate source of CL information and every communication channel around it. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
participants (3)
-
Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll -
pjb＠informatimago.com -
Robert Goldman