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May 2018

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Re: CDR maintenance
by Antoniotti Marco 25 May '18

25 May '18

IMHO it is a chicken and egg problem. E.g., having the MOP document in a clear and stable place has worked as a nudge for the implementations. But the main issue is that writing quality spec documents is hard and it takes time, therefore YMMV etc etc. Again, the process is very simple and, alas, pretty dead. I would welcome a CDR on UIOP, but IMHO it will be quite a bit of work as UIOP is rather large. And then there are other interesting issue, such as the recent snag on READER-ERROR and PACKAGE-ERROR discussed on CLL. Things like this do require implementors’ commitment, but, as we all know this discussion has been going on for years at this point. Cheers — MA > On May 24, 2018, at 23:33 , Stelian Ionescu <sionescu(a)cddr.org> wrote: > > Sure, but I'm afraid that the problem with CDR process is that if you don't get buy-in from implementors first, it will go nowhere. Right now the CDR repository is mostly a dump for half-baked ideas. Is there even one that has been adopted by at least two CL implementations *after* publication ? > > > >> It might be nice to get some of the APIs that are in UIOP into CDRs. I'd love to see some of that code moved to the implementations where it belongs, and out of the ASDF codebase. >> >> >> cheers, >> r >> >> >> On 24 May 2018, at 3:34, Antoniotti Marco wrote: >> >> >> >>> On May 23, 2018, at 11:57 , Svante v. Erichsen <Svante.v.Erichsen(a)web.de> wrote: >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> I agree that hosting seems not to be the issue. It just needs to be corrected in CDR 4 (adjusting URLs is allowed). >> >> Yep.. That should be fixed. >> >>> I was just asking about the existing procedure, in whatever state that may be, as I am considering participation. Of course, this should be taken to the CDR mailinglists instead, sorry for that. >> >> The procedure is quite simple. I quote: >> >> • One or more authors submit a document. >> • We (*) check that the document is a printable text document, that it is indeed about Common Lisp, and that it does not contain objectionable material (like porn, religious or political statements, etc.). >> • The document will be immediately assigned a fresh CDR number that can be used to refer to the document. We will make the document available for an initial period, after which it will be frozen and moved into final status, unless the authors decide to withdraw the document during the initial period. >> >> (*) the “editors” >> >> Apart from my guilty delinquency on redoing the web site, most of the work has been taking care of spam (an inordinate amount of French spam - go figure) on the mailing lists. >> >> >>> I disagree about the judgement of the perceived lack of contributions, though. I feel that it is perfectly valid not to have itches that would need to be scratched on the language level. >> >> Of course. I do not think that any of the 14 CDRs “scratch itches at the language level”. >> >> Having said so, I do believe that a few more CDRs would go a long way to clarify the corner cases of the language while nudging all the implementations (if they are “nudge-able”) to implement them. >> >> Cheers >> — >> MA >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Yours aye >>> >>> Svante >>> >>> Am 23. Mai 2018 08:40:14 MESZ, schrieb Antoniotti Marco <antoniotti.marco(a)disco.unimib.it>: >>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> I don’t think the problem is the hosting; CLL works just fine and CDR >>>> hold only “finished” documents. I think that the main problem is the >>>> *lack* of contributions, which somehow reflects the overall status of >>>> the community. >>>> >>>> How to change the attitude of the community into seeing value in what >>>> is in effect a “bottom up” standardization effort, I sincerely don’t >>>> know. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> — >>>> MA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 22, 2018, at 13:14 , Alexandre Rademaker >>>> <arademaker(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Back in 2013, ECL in Madrid, I remember some discussions about the >>>> future of CDR. It would be nice to compare with other similar >>>> initiatives such as >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Python :https://www.python.org/dev/peps/ >>>>> Erlang : http://www.erlang.org/erlang-enhancement-proposals/home >>>>> >>>>> I’ve also tried to see how Haskell and Racket deal with that. I found >>>> this https://www.quora.com/Is-there-anything-like-PEP-but-for-Haskell >>>> about Racket. Racket seems to use Github issues >>>> https://github.com/racket/racket/issues >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is there still a place for CDR? If so, maybe we can simply use the >>>> GitHub infrastructure? We may also try to find incentives to CDR >>>> submissions? Maybe associating it to short-papers in ECL/ECLM? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Alexandre Rademaker >>>>> http://arademaker.github.io >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 22 May 2018, at 06:53, Antoniotti Marco >>>> <antoniotti.marco(a)disco.unimib.it> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been somewhat stewarding the project, but do not have much >>>> time to do maintenance (read: revamping the web site) at all. >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It must also be said that there have not been submissions for CDRs, >>>> or requests for much change to old ones in a long time as far as I >>>> could tell. >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> All the best >>>>>> >>>>>> Marco >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 22, 2018, at 11:43 , Svante v. Erichsen >>>> <Svante.v.Erichsen(a)web.de> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd certainly want this project to continue, so I'd consider >>>> participating in it. Can you give a rough estimate of the frequency of >>>> requests and the effort needed to address them? >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am a bit confused that the project actually seems to reside at >>>> common-lisp.net, but claims to be hosted at cdr.eurolisp.org (which >>>> redirects to Edi's homepage). How is the work organized technically? Is >>>> there a version control repository? >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yours aye >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Svante >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 22. Mai 2018 10:50:20 MESZ, schrieb Pascal Costanza >>>> <pc(a)p-cos.net>: >>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Common Lisp Document Repository (CDR - >>>>>>>> https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/) is for all practical >>>> purposes >>>> >>>>>>>> currently unmaintained. We have been receiving a few minor >>>> requests >>>> >>>>>>>> recently, but don’t have the time anymore to take care of this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there somebody else in the community who would like to take >>>> over and >>>> >>>>>>>> breathe some new life into this project? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Pascal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Pascal Costanza >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 >>>>>> DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 >>>> 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it >>>> >>>>>> Viale Sarca 336 >>>>>> I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY >>>>>> >>>>>> Please check: http://cdac2018.lakecomoschool.org >>>>>> Please check: http://troncopackage.org >>>>>> Please check: >>>> https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/7394/network-bioscience >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Please note that I am not checking my Spam-box anymore. >>>>>> Please do not forward this email without asking me first (cum grano >>>> salis). >>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 >>>> DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it >>>> Viale Sarca 336 >>>> I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY >>>> >>>> Please check: http://cdac2018.lakecomoschool.org >>>> Please check: http://troncopackage.org >>>> Please check: >>>> https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/7394/network-bioscience >>>> >>>> Please note that I am not checking my Spam-box anymore. >>>> Please do not forward this email without asking me first (cum grano >>>> salis). >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 >> DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it >> Viale Sarca 336 >> I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY >> >> Please check: http://cdac2018.lakecomoschool.org >> Please check: http://troncopackage.org >> Please check: https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/7394/network-bioscience >> >> Please note that I am not checking my Spam-box anymore. >> Please do not forward this email without asking me first (cum grano salis). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Robert P. Goldman >> Research Fellow >> Smart Information Flow Technologies (d/b/a SIFT, LLC) >> >> >> 319 N. First Ave., Suite 400 >> Minneapolis, MN 55401 >> >> >> Voice: (612) 326-3934 >> Email: rpgoldman(a)SIFT.net >> > > > -- > Stelian Ionescu a.k.a. fe[nl]ix > Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -- Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it Viale Sarca 336 I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY Please check: http://cdac2018.lakecomoschool.org Please check: http://troncopackage.org Please check: https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/7394/network-bioscience Please note that I am not checking my Spam-box anymore. Please do not forward this email without asking me first (cum grano salis).

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Re: CDR maintenance
by Antoniotti Marco 24 May '18

24 May '18

On May 23, 2018, at 11:57 , Svante v. Erichsen <Svante.v.Erichsen(a)web.de<mailto:Svante.v.Erichsen@web.de>> wrote: Hi I agree that hosting seems not to be the issue. It just needs to be corrected in CDR 4 (adjusting URLs is allowed). Yep.. That should be fixed. I was just asking about the existing procedure, in whatever state that may be, as I am considering participation. Of course, this should be taken to the CDR mailinglists instead, sorry for that. The procedure is quite simple. I quote: * One or more authors submit a document. * We (*) check that the document is a printable text document, that it is indeed about Common Lisp, and that it does not contain objectionable material (like porn, religious or political statements, etc.). * The document will be immediately assigned a fresh CDR number that can be used to refer to the document. We will make the document available for an initial period, after which it will be frozen and moved into final status, unless the authors decide to withdraw the document during the initial period. (*) the “editors” Apart from my guilty delinquency on redoing the web site, most of the work has been taking care of spam (an inordinate amount of French spam - go figure) on the mailing lists. I disagree about the judgement of the perceived lack of contributions, though. I feel that it is perfectly valid not to have itches that would need to be scratched on the language level. Of course. I do not think that any of the 14 CDRs “scratch itches at the language level”. Having said so, I do believe that a few more CDRs would go a long way to clarify the corner cases of the language while nudging all the implementations (if they are “nudge-able”) to implement them. Cheers — MA Yours aye Svante Am 23. Mai 2018 08:40:14 MESZ, schrieb Antoniotti Marco <antoniotti.marco(a)disco.unimib.it<mailto:antoniotti.marco@disco.unimib.it>>: Hi I don’t think the problem is the hosting; CLL works just fine and CDR hold only “finished” documents. I think that the main problem is the *lack* of contributions, which somehow reflects the overall status of the community. How to change the attitude of the community into seeing value in what is in effect a “bottom up” standardization effort, I sincerely don’t know. Cheers — MA On May 22, 2018, at 13:14 , Alexandre Rademaker <arademaker(a)gmail.com<mailto:arademaker@gmail.com>> wrote: Back in 2013, ECL in Madrid, I remember some discussions about the future of CDR. It would be nice to compare with other similar initiatives such as Python : https://www.python.org/dev/peps/ Erlang : http://www.erlang.org/erlang-enhancement-proposals/home I’ve also tried to see how Haskell and Racket deal with that. I found this https://www.quora.com/Is-there-anything-like-PEP-but-for-Haskell about Racket. Racket seems to use Github issues https://github.com/racket/racket/issues Is there still a place for CDR? If so, maybe we can simply use the GitHub infrastructure? We may also try to find incentives to CDR submissions? Maybe associating it to short-papers in ECL/ECLM? Best, -- Alexandre Rademaker http://arademaker.github.io On 22 May 2018, at 06:53, Antoniotti Marco <antoniotti.marco(a)disco.unimib.it> wrote: Hi I have been somewhat stewarding the project, but do not have much time to do maintenance (read: revamping the web site) at all. It must also be said that there have not been submissions for CDRs, or requests for much change to old ones in a long time as far as I could tell. All the best Marco On May 22, 2018, at 11:43 , Svante v. Erichsen <Svante.v.Erichsen(a)web.de> wrote: Hi! I'd certainly want this project to continue, so I'd consider participating in it. Can you give a rough estimate of the frequency of requests and the effort needed to address them? I am a bit confused that the project actually seems to reside at common-lisp.net, but claims to be hosted at cdr.eurolisp.org (which redirects to Edi's homepage). How is the work organized technically? Is there a version control repository? Yours aye Svante Am 22. Mai 2018 10:50:20 MESZ, schrieb Pascal Costanza <pc(a)p-cos.net>: Hi, The Common Lisp Document Repository (CDR - https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/) is for all practical purposes currently unmaintained. We have been receiving a few minor requests recently, but don’t have the time anymore to take care of this. Is there somebody else in the community who would like to take over and breathe some new life into this project? Thanks, Pascal -- Pascal Costanza -- Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it Viale Sarca 336 I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY Please check: http://cdac2018.lakecomoschool.org Please check: http://troncopackage.org Please check: https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/7394/network-bioscience Please note that I am not checking my Spam-box anymore. Please do not forward this email without asking me first (cum grano salis). -- Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it Viale Sarca 336 I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY Please check: http://cdac2018.lakecomoschool.org Please check: http://troncopackage.org Please check: https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/7394/network-bioscience Please note that I am not checking my Spam-box anymore. Please do not forward this email without asking me first (cum grano salis). -- Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it Viale Sarca 336 I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY Please check: http://cdac2018.lakecomoschool.org Please check: http://troncopackage.org Please check: https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/7394/network-bioscience Please note that I am not checking my Spam-box anymore. Please do not forward this email without asking me first (cum grano salis).

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