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311 discussions

[lisp-hh] Terminology [Was: Re: [ANN] Erlisp website]
by Dirk Gerrits 14 Oct '04

14 Oct '04

Luke Gorrie <luke(a)synap.se> writes: Hi Luke. > Erlisp sounds cool, I'm looking forward to see what you come up with. I'm glad I sparked your interest. I'm looking forward to see what I come up with as well. ;) > For now I suggest adopting the definition that /concurrency/ is > juggling a lot of different tasks at once, whereas /parallelism/ is > optimization by using multiple processors at the same time. With these > definitions Erlang and Erlisp are about concurrency and not parallelism. Hmm, I should add a terminology page. But I could use some suggestions for it. The way I see it, there are (at least) 5 related concepts: 1. juggling a lot of different tasks at once on a single machine with a single processor 2. juggling a lot of different tasks at once on a single machine with multiple processors 3. juggling a lot of different tasks at once on a single machine (regardless of its number of processors) 4. juggling a lot of different tasks at once across multiple machines 5. juggling a lot of different tasks at once (regardless of the number of machines involved) I was using the terminology: 1. - 2. - 3. dirk:parallelism 4. dirk:distribution 5. dirk:concurrency What would would you suggest? 1. - 2. - 3. luke:concurrency 4. luke:distribution 5. luke:concurrent and luke:distributed ? I would really like to have a single word for each of 3, 4, and 5. But I do share your sentiment that the 1 vs 2 distinction is not really interesting (from a language design standpoint). If I need to mention 1 and 2 at all, I'll just write them out in full. BTW, "processor" should probably be defined more thoroughly as well. It seems to be hot these days to make CPUs with multiple cores. > This is an important distinction. Parallelism is boring: everybody's > already read old papers about parallel Lisps and nobody's actually > writing parallel Lisp programs. Concurrency is sexy: everybody's > writing concurrent programs (McCLIM, Araneida, etc etc) and Erlisp is > trying to break ground by making these programs much easier to write. I agree, in principle, but the luke:parallel Lisps of old also had a luke:concurrency aspect, and some of them look really interesting. > Don't be labelled as just another parallel Lisp! :-) Well so far Erlisp has mostly been labelled as an "Erlang in Lisp". While that isn't half bad, I'd like to go beyond that once I really get there. ;) > P.S., IMO two great background reading books are _Communicating > Sequential Processes_ by Hoare (online at www.usingcsp.com) and _The > Architecture of Concurrent Programs_ by Per Brinch Hansen (library, or > cheap at www.bookfinder.com) They have both books at my university's library, which is good as I don't like reading large amounts of a text of a computer screen. :) I've already read the first, I'll have to pick up the second some time. Thanks for the pointers. Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits

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[lisp-hh] [ANN] Erlisp website
by Dirk Gerrits 13 Oct '04

13 Oct '04

Hello my Lisping friends, I've already told some of you this, but I've started on a project to bring Erlang's light-weight, message passing concurrency to Common Lisp. Today I've finished completely overhauling my website, and I've created a project website for Erlisp in the process. (See: http://www.dirkgerrits.com/erlisp/) Here's a brief summary: Why is it that Common Lisp is better than "mainstream" languages in a lot of ways, but not in parallelism and distributed programming? Is it just because threads with shared memory and locking are the best we can do for parallelism, and because socket and RPC libraries are totally adequate for distributed programming? I think the answer is no. Some older Lisps and a few younger, non-Lisp languages like Erlang have intriguing approaches to concurrency that are easier to use and less "low-level" than this industry best practice. Erlisp is my attempt to bring some of these ideas to Common Lisp, and perhaps develop some new approaches in the process. Phase 1 of this project will involve bringing (most of) the features of the Erlang programming language to Common Lisp. Erlang is a small but powerful functional, parallel, and distributed programming language originally developed at Ericsson for use in the telecom industry. It's been really successful as a parallel and distributed programming language, and is pretty Lisp-like for a language with syntax, so it seems like a good starting point. Phase 2 is much bolder and involves doing for models of parallel and distributed programming what the CLOS MOP did for object systems. The design of such a metaobject protocol is a hard and evolutionary process with which I have absolutely no experience, so this is very much a long-term goal. So far, there is no code to speak of. Just Erlisp's roadmap, describing the basic plan of attack for its realization, and a list of references to relevant articles, books, etc. Questions, comments, suggestions, articles, books, prior art, and constructive criticism are always welcome. Just reply to this e-mail, in private or through the mailing list. Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits

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[lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5
by Edi Weitz 12 Oct '04

12 Oct '04

Moin! Nach dem sehr interessanten und erfolgreichen Amsterdam-Meeting (Hi Arthur!) würde ich gerne etwas ähnliches auch in Hamburg hinkriegen. Damit Leute, die von weiter weg kommen, nicht zu viel Geld und Zeit investieren müssen, sollten wir damit aber noch etwas warten. Arthur meinte, und ich stimme ihm zu, daß einmal pro Quartal wohl eine gute Frequenz für ein "großes" Lisp-Meeting wäre. Damit würde es auf Januar/Februar hinauslaufen, ich präferiere aber Anfang März, weil dann die Autofahrer hoffentlich etwas bessere Chancen haben und Hamburg evtl. auch besser aussieht. (Als Lokalpatriot sollte man den touristischen Aspekt nicht ganz außer acht lassen... :) Um die Wartezeit zu überbrücken vielleicht vorher noch ein "kleines" Meeting? Im November? Vorschlag: 1. Übernächstes Meeting in Hamburg Anfang März an einem Sonntag. Vorträge diverser Lisp-Celebrities, u.a. wohl Christophe Rhodes, Luke Gorrie und Arthur Lemmens, vielleicht auch Mario Mommer. Ggf. am Samstagabend gemeinsames Abendessen der bereits Anwesenden irgendwo auf dem Kiez ("Abendmahl" oder sowas). Ort: Ich suche noch - aber etwas, was zentraler liegt und etwas netter ist als der Landesjugendring. 2. Nächstes Meeting am 14.11. um 14 Uhr am selben Ort (LJR) wie beim letzten Mal, falls niemand grundsätzliche Einwände gegen Ort und Zeit hat (und ich den Raum für diesen Tag reservieren kann). Anschließend irgendwo essen gehen. Da es in letzter Zeit ein paar Anfragen in diese Richtung gab, würde ich vorschlagen, daß wir (zumindest auch) was für "Newbies" anbieten. Ich könnte z.B. bei Interesse ein bißchen demonstrieren, wie man mit SLIME arbeitet. Dann wäre ich endlich mal gezwungen, mir das selbst genauer anzusehen... :) Andere Ideen/Vorschläge für Vorträge, Demos undsoweiter? Frage, Wünsche, Beschwerden? Vielleicht hat auch jemand Lust, bei der Organisation mitzuhelfen? Grüße, Edi. PS: Daß es ein "kleines" Meeting werden soll, sollte natürlich niemanden von außerhalb davon abhalten, vorbeizukommen. Sooo klein soll es dann ja auch nicht werden.

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[lisp-hh] Lisp meeting in Amsterdam
by Arthur Lemmens 17 Sep '04

17 Sep '04

Hi, There seems to be a (hopefully temporary) problem with the ALU Cliki site, so I moved the Lisp meeting announcement to http://www.xs4all.nl/~alemmens/lisp/meetings/september-2004.html Sorry for the confusion. Hoping to see you in Amsterdam, Arthur Lemmens +31 20 665 8228 +31 6 14 377 438

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[lisp-hh] Lisp meeting in Amsterdam
by Arthur Lemmens 17 Sep '04

17 Sep '04

Hi, The next Amsterdam Lisp meeting will take place on September 26, with presentations (by Peter van Eynde, Edi Weitz, Jim Newton, Marc Battyani and Ernst van Waning) from 14:00-18:00 and drinks and dinner afterwards. I'm expecting 20-30 participants from France, Belgium, UK, Germany and the Netherlands. Everybody with an interest in Lisp is welcome. Further details can be found at http://alu.cliki.net/next-benelux-meeting Hoping to see you in Amsterdam, Arthur Lemmens

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[lisp-hh] Lisp meeting in Amsterdam on September 26
by Arthur Lemmens 08 Sep '04

08 Sep '04

Hi, The next Amsterdam Lisp meeting will take place on September 26. There will be presentations by: - Peter van Eynde (Antwerp, Belgium) - Marc Battyani (Fontainebleau, France) - Edi Weitz (Hamburg, Germany) - Jim Newton (Muenchen, Germany). The presentations start at 14:00. We'll have some drinks between 18:00 and 19:00. Then we'll walk to a nearby restaurant (probably Thai) for dinner. Everybody with an interest in Lisp is welcome. If you intend to come to the meeting, please mail me (<alemmens(a)xs4all.nl>). More details about the address, the schedule and the presentations will follow soon. Hoping to meet you in Amsterdam, Arthur Lemmens

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[lisp-hh] ANN: Lispniks Cologne meeting - 29 August
by Tayssir John Gabbour 08 Sep '04

08 Sep '04

Hello North German lispers, Sunday, 29 August at 16:00, will be the next meeting of the Lispniks Cologne. http://alu.cliki.net/Cologne The lectures will be: Arthur Lemmens (Calendrical Calculations). Mario Mommer (Ideas on Code Generation, Based on a Dissatisfaction with Partial Evaluation, along with Some Problems Which Appear Harder to Solve Otherwise). Where? Heinsberg Str. 14 Erdgeschoss Koeln tel: 0221 - 9234153 Please feel free to ask about directions; I know travel can be stressful. Also you can call that telephone number, and I have a good map of Koeln, so no problem if you're lost in the city. For your entertainment, an ASDF starting-out guide and Object Persistence slides were recently released, from previous talks: http://lecture.pentaside.org/paper/asdf-starting-out-mommer.pdf http://lecture.pentaside.org/paper/persistence-lemmens.txt MfG, Tayssir __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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[lisp-hh] Freiberufler gesucht
by Edi Weitz 12 Aug '04

12 Aug '04

Moin! Allerdings ist dies kein Jobangebot. Ein Soziologie-Student aus Göttingen sucht für seine Diplomarbeit noch ein paar Leute, die er gerne interviewen würde. Voraussetzungen: - IT-Branche - Freiberufler - lebt mit Partner und mindestens einem Kind zusammen Das Interview dauert ca. 90 Minuten, man bekommt nix dafür und wird auch nicht berühmt. Tut aber auch nicht weh. Falls die Voraussetzungen auf einen von Euch zutreffen oder Ihr jemanden kennt, auf den das zutrifft, könnt Ihr mir ja mal eine Email schicken. Grüße, Edi.

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[lisp-hh] Hi
by Luke Gorrie 12 Jul '04

12 Jul '04

Howdy, Does it make any sense to turn up at one of these meetings without speaking German? If so I'd quite like to pop in some time. I'd like to have gone to yesterday's meeting but I need about two weeks notice to get a cheap Ryanair flight from Stockholm. Cheers, Luke

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[lisp-hh] My MOP talk, some further remarks...
by Pascal Costanza 05 Jul '04

05 Jul '04

Hi, Sometimes, you know better ways to answer questions that have come up during a talk after you've returned home. So in this case. There was a question wrt to the LispWorks MOP and its introspection capabilities. It seems to me now that I have left the impression that one cannot inspect a class for its (declared or effective) slots. This is not true. In fact, all the slots that you define as usual in a defclass form are still available as slot-definition objects and can be queried, and so on. The only difference between the AMOP specification and the LispWorks MOP in this regard is that the slot-xxx-using-class generic functions are passed a slot-definition metaobject as the third parameter in AMOP, but the slot name in LispWorks. Of course, one cannot query a class for the slots that happen to have been added to single instances after they have been created in the hash-table-based classes - after all, the purpose of those is to add potentially unknown slots after the fact. However, it's possible a) to query single instances for slots that they know about and b) to add more functionality to the hash-table-based class so that it keeps track of all the slots that have been added to instances thereof, and then it would be possible to query that (potentially growing) set. You will just not be able to query them as slot-definition metaobjects, that's all. On a different note: There was one remark about slot-makunbound-using-class being too liberal with regard to an object's hash table. We have been drawn into a discussion whether one way or the other is better. However, what I have been missing and is more important here is the fact that we don't have to agree here. The cool thing about the MOP is that everyone can have the object model that suits them most for the given task at hand. I think it's important to stress this once more because it takes a little getting used to the fact that there is no one single right way to do things. Pascal -- Pascal Costanza University of Bonn mailto:costanza@web.de Institute of Computer Science III http://www.pascalcostanza.de Römerstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)

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