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Questions about complexity of some functions in various implementations.
by Marco Antoniotti 23 Jan '21

23 Jan '21

Hello everybody I remember from the trenches that LW implementation of INTERSECTION and UNION does not have (expected) linear time complexity. Before I go ahead checking the various implementations, does anybody know what is the time complexity of, at least, FIND, FIND-IF, POSITION and POSITION-IF for VECTOR inputs in various implementations? That is, does anybody know whether these functions have at least O(lg n) time complexity in any of the implementations out there? All the best Marco -- Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it Viale Sarca 336 I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY

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[CfP] ELS'21, 14th European Lisp Symposium, online, May 3-4 2021
by Didier Verna 23 Dec '20

23 Dec '20

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 14th European Lisp Symposium Call for Papers May 3 - May 4, 2021 Online / Everywhere http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/2021 Sponsored by EPITA and RavenPack ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Invited Speakers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ tba Important Dates ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - Submission deadline: March 7, 2021 - Author notification: April 6, 2021 - Final papers due: April 19, 2021 - Symposium: May 3 - May 4, 2021 Scope ~~~~~ The European Lisp Symposium is a premier forum for the discussion and dissemination of all aspects of design, implementation and application of any of the Lisp dialects, including Common Lisp, Scheme, Emacs Lisp, Clojure, Racket, ACL2, AutoLisp, ISLISP, Dylan, SKILL, Hy, Shen, Carp, Janet, uLisp, Picolisp, Gamelisp, TXR, and so on. We encourage everyone interested in Lisp to participate. The European Lisp Symposium 2021 invites high quality papers about novel research results, insights and lessons learned from practical applications, and educational perspectives. We also encourage submissions about known ideas as long as they are presented in a new setting and/or in a highly elegant way. Topics include but are not limited to: - Context-, aspect-, domain-oriented and generative programming - Macro-, reflective-, meta- and/or rule-based development approaches - Language design and implementation - Language integration, inter-operation and deployment - Development methodologies, support and environments - Educational approaches and perspectives - Experience reports and case studies Technical Program ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We invite submissions in the following forms: * Papers: Technical papers of up to 8 pages that describe original results or explain known ideas in new and elegant ways. * Demonstrations: Abstracts of up to 4 pages for demonstrations of tools, libraries, and applications. * Tutorials: Abstracts of up to 4 pages for in-depth presentations about topics of special interest for at least 90 minutes and up to 180 minutes. All submissions should be formatted following the ACM SIGS guidelines and include ACM Computing Classification System 2012 concepts and terms. Submissions should be uploaded to Easy Chair, at the following http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=els2021 Note: to help us with the review process please indicate the type of submission by entering either "paper", "demo", or "tutorial" in the Keywords field. Programme Chair ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Marco Heisig - FAU Erlangen-Nürnberg, Germany Local Chairs ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michał Herda Mark Evenson - RavenPack Programme Committee ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ tba -- Didier Verna

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In CLOS, instance remorphing considered useless in practice?
by Jean-Claude Beaudoin 16 Dec '20

16 Dec '20

Hello Pros of Common Lisp, Here is my attempt at starting a significant (and hopefully useful) debate on a subject squarely about Common Lisp and its internals. My main stance here is to state that I have yet to see, in a significant application, any use of functions #'cl:make-instance-obsolete and #'cl:update-instance-for-redefined-class and of the underlying machinery that support the remorphing of instances following a class redefinition (through a subsequent cl:defclass most likely). I can state the same thing about #'cl:update-instance-for-different-class and #'cl:change-class. The machinery required of any CL implementation to properly support those functions (mentioned here above) is quite significant in its complexity and usually imposes a sizeable performance penalty on the speed of any instance slot access. A different choice of class redefinition semantics can lead to an implementation of CLOS with much reduced instance slot access overhead. The necessity of supporting instance remorphing should therefore be well motivated by very significant gains in application code performance (in speed and/or size and/or expressiveness power). Can anyone of you point me to some evidence of such application level usefulness? Is there any notorious usecase of this (instance remorphing) since its inclusion into ANSI CL? By the way, at the bottom of the entry about #'cl:change-class in the text of the CL standard, one can find a "Notes:" section that starts with this sentence: "The generic function change-class has several semantic difficulties." And this was written in the context of a single-threaded implementation, as ANSI-CL limited itself. I bet that almost all currently significant CL implementations are now multi-threaded, therefore the "several semantic difficulties" are greatly and gravely compounded. In my opinion, this makes proper motivation of usefulness all the more imperious. What do you think?

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Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus
by Ken Tilton 08 Dec '20

08 Dec '20

Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the web/mobile-native constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take off -- no need then to fret over platform, power will matter. Thx! On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard <stoney(a)sb.org> wrote: > Ken, > > Are you familiar with Opusmodus? > <http://opusmodus.com> > > It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible array of > music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful window > system. Mac only. > > Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible. Good > Luck! > > - Stoney > ———— > Stonewall Ballard stoney(a)sb.org http://stoney.sb.org > > On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentilton(a)gmail.com) wrote: > > So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT careers > for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on creating > career opportunities for African Americans. > > The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation of > music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there is prolly > enough there to introduce most if not all fundamental programming concepts. > > For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming itself, > which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go! > > The idea is to: > > - use music as the hook; > - defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming (I > am looking at you, node.js); > - part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the > parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run > where JS runs; > - keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be. > Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want > to *develop* those in the code camp; > - tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the > musical hook. > > I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a strong > musical bent. My questions are: > > - Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web app, > perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we *could* CL-ify CLJS with > sufficent clever macrology. > - What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course be > expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental. > - If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an ongoing > discussion? Google groups? > > Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome. > > -hk > > -- Kenneth Tilton http://tiltontec.com/

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Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus
by Ken Tilton 01 Dec '20

01 Dec '20

So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on creating career opportunities for African Americans. The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation of music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there is prolly enough there to introduce most if not all fundamental programming concepts. For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming itself, which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go! The idea is to: - use music as the hook; - defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming (I am looking at you, node.js); - part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run where JS runs; - keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be. Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want to *develop* those in the code camp; - tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the musical hook. I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a strong musical bent. My questions are: - Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web app, perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we *could* CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever macrology. - What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course be expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental. - If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an ongoing discussion? Google groups? Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome. -hk

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Maru - a tiny self-hosting lisp dialect
by Attila Lendvai 05 Oct '20

05 Oct '20

dear list, some of you may already know about Maru, Ian Piumarta's tiny lisp that can self-host in about 2000 LoC through x86 asm. it was developed as part of Alan Kay's VPRI-FoNC project, and then was abandoned in a state that is more of a proof of concept than anything meant to be production ready. https://github.com/attila-lendvai/maru i started hacking on it mostly for fun, and made some substantial improvements, mostly driven by turning it into something that is easier to read and understand, and also to make it more aesthetically pleasing to me. the reason i'm writing this mail is to get some feedback on whether the discussion about some lisp related linguistic features and implementation strategies are welcome here on this list... so, are they? and if it's not, then what would be a good forum for in-depth discussion of lisp related implementation strategies. -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 --

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A day of this
by Burton Samograd 18 Aug '20

18 Aug '20

Goodbye. — burton

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Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus
by Stonewall Ballard 06 Jul '20

06 Jul '20

Ken, Are you familiar with Opusmodus? <http://opusmodus.com> It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible array of music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful window system. Mac only. Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible. Good Luck! - Stoney ———— Stonewall Ballard stoney(a)sb.org http://stoney.sb.org On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentilton(a)gmail.com) wrote: So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on creating career opportunities for African Americans. The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation of music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there is prolly enough there to introduce most if not all fundamental programming concepts. For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming itself, which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go! The idea is to: use music as the hook; defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming (I am looking at you, node.js); part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run where JS runs; keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be. Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want to develop those in the code camp; tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the musical hook. I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a strong musical bent. My questions are: Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web app, perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we could CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever macrology. What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course be expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental. If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an ongoing discussion? Google groups? Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome. -hk

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Hi
by Manfred Bergmann 26 May '20

26 May '20

Hello. (Not sure where this message finally is appended to as reply. I’ve copied the subject and body from the archive.) I’m also new to the list here. Interesting to find Peter Seibel here as well, just read his book PCL last year. I’m actually also quite new to Common List. Yes, I guess there are still people coming. After dealing more than 20 years with mostly Java/Scala, or the JVM in general, .NET, Objective-C and many other things I must say that Common Lisp is so refreshing. I’m not sure how else I can express it. It’s so great. Not having had any dealings with Lisp before (I’m not sure why) it’s hard to really grasp it. But now, after > 1 year I think I have a bit of understanding. I’ve tried Clojure. But since I’m coming from the JVM I was looking form something that does not run on the JVM (I’m a bit tired of it). Now I’ve collected a fair amount of CL books and so absorbing all the great information that is in this environment. Cheers, Manfred > Hey Burton, This list is not very active, but some of us still use Common Lisp as their main language :) Best regards, Daniel On May 8, 2020 8:53:11 AM GMT+02:00, Geoffrey Teale <tealeg at gmail.com> wrote: >Hello Burton, > > > >I'm afraid there's not a lot of action on this list, but welcome all > >the > >same. > > > >For my part, Common Lisp isn't really part of my daily life anymore - I > >use > >Racket a fair bit, and Elisp. >

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Dependencies between CL projects in GitHub
by Alexandre Rademaker 26 May '20

26 May '20

Hi all, It would be nice to have the `used by` button on all CL projects like we see in the ABCL: https://github.com/armedbear/abcl Unfortunately, it looks like GitHub team does not know about the `.asd` files. https://help.github.com/en/github/visualizing-repository-data-with-graphs/l… Best, Alexandre

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