Brandon, It sounds like you know how to get a paying job doing Lisp or Scheme or something. Be your own boss and choose your best tools. Find some compatriots to work with you on making a business. That strikes me as more efficient than converting the society around you. Either way, my interest is in miniature Lisp systems (e.g., Scheme at its basic level) and also how and whether to integrate Lisp solutions into industrial-grade application deployments. (That's why Chicken tweaks my interest too.) - Dennis PS: I recommend that you not waste your time selling Dennis on "selling." It will just be off-purpose when there are more important pursuits. -----Original Message----- From: seattle-bounces@common-lisp.net [mailto:seattle-bounces@common-lisp.net] On Behalf Of Brandon J. Van Every Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 19:02 To: seattle@common-lisp.net Subject: Re: [LispSea] charter [ ... ] Of course, I am biased. I do not share Dennis' perspective. I want to promote! I want a paying *JOB* doing Lisp or Scheme or something. [ ... ] I'm saying: (1) having a primary focus is fine. I'm voting for promotion. (2) including people who want to do other things is fine. (3) we shouldn't fear the loss of those who insist the primary focus is bad. Having a focus brings benefits that are worth such losses. My bar for success is "are we as good as NYC Lisp." That's the metric. Whatever it takes to get to that metric, I'm in favor of. Anything less than that, I say, SeaFunc already did it, or will gradually do it. Aim higher. [ ... ] I move for less focus on charters, and more on creating biosheets of specific individuals who want to champion various causes. Action counts. The group is going to be the sum total of its members' actions, no matter what the Charter says. Networking counts. It's one thing if I'm off on my own tangent. But what if 3 others share my tangent? I will put myself down for: Scheme, Chicken Scheme specifically, C FFIs, performance, free or cheap natively compiled Common Lisp on Windows, OpenGL, AI, and the game industry. [ ... ] Experience with SeaFunc has shown that, it's better to have people discuss things face-to-face. For instance, if Dennis finds himself unsubscribing, it may be because he gets bored, or he gets offended, or because Brandon talks too much, or whatever. These problems don't happen so much in person. I bet, in person, I could probably convince Dennis that his outright distaste for the term "selling" is misguided, as far as what LispSea needs to achieve. Or if not, I'd learn an awful lot about the demographic he represents, and its likely effect on getting LispSea some legs. But online discussions, in contrast, carry a lot of risk of people getting irritated. That is to say, when people don't share agendas. Cheers, Brandon Van Every _______________________________________________ seattle mailing list seattle@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seattle