[hunchentoot-devel] Using Hunchentoot and cl-who with other people (non-coders)
Hi, list, I am developing my first web app of any kind. I've no experience with other web app frameworks (like RoR or what have you). I am working with a friend, who knows Dreamweaver and other fairly high level web-design tools, but can't code at all. On the other hand, I don't know web-design at all, using tools or not, so we're pretty complementary. So I'm seeking guidance on how I can continue to develop using Hunchentoot and cl-who, and yet integrate machine-generated html or css or what have you from Dreamweaver or other tools? As I understand it, this is a known difficulty that other teams and tool designers have faced, and if I'd ever worked with any other teams or tools then it might be a no-brainer, but given my lack of experience in this respect I'm not even sure what to Google to find answers for myself. I'd appreciate any advice, links, pointers, etc, that users of Hunchentoot and/or cl-who could provide. Thanks! -- Larry Clapp
Hi Larry, If you are working with a web designer -- who can do HTML/CSS, or, as in your case, you use HTML generated by some web-design tool -- I don't believe cl-who works out very well in this setup. But if you really want it, you can try using cl-who with cl-emb: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-emb/examples.html Personally, I would prefer to use a simple templating language like html-template. Cheers, Chaitanya Larry Clapp wrote:
Hi, list,
I am developing my first web app of any kind. I've no experience with other web app frameworks (like RoR or what have you). I am working with a friend, who knows Dreamweaver and other fairly high level web-design tools, but can't code at all. On the other hand, I don't know web-design at all, using tools or not, so we're pretty complementary.
So I'm seeking guidance on how I can continue to develop using Hunchentoot and cl-who, and yet integrate machine-generated html or css or what have you from Dreamweaver or other tools?
As I understand it, this is a known difficulty that other teams and tool designers have faced, and if I'd ever worked with any other teams or tools then it might be a no-brainer, but given my lack of experience in this respect I'm not even sure what to Google to find answers for myself.
I'd appreciate any advice, links, pointers, etc, that users of Hunchentoot and/or cl-who could provide. Thanks!
-- Larry Clapp
_______________________________________________ tbnl-devel site list tbnl-devel@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/tbnl-devel
For this kind of cooperation, people usually use templating systems like, for example, my HTML-TEMPLATE. My experience is that this works quite well, at least to a certain extent. Edi. On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Larry Clapp <larry@theclapp.org> wrote:
Hi, list,
I am developing my first web app of any kind. I've no experience with other web app frameworks (like RoR or what have you). I am working with a friend, who knows Dreamweaver and other fairly high level web-design tools, but can't code at all. On the other hand, I don't know web-design at all, using tools or not, so we're pretty complementary.
So I'm seeking guidance on how I can continue to develop using Hunchentoot and cl-who, and yet integrate machine-generated html or css or what have you from Dreamweaver or other tools?
As I understand it, this is a known difficulty that other teams and tool designers have faced, and if I'd ever worked with any other teams or tools then it might be a no-brainer, but given my lack of experience in this respect I'm not even sure what to Google to find answers for myself.
I'd appreciate any advice, links, pointers, etc, that users of Hunchentoot and/or cl-who could provide. Thanks!
-- Larry Clapp
_______________________________________________ tbnl-devel site list tbnl-devel@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/tbnl-devel
Having looked around at the options listed so far, I would have to say HTML-TEMPLATE is looking like your best bet, as it is not going to make a horrible mess in dreamweaver. It looks a little verbose, but that should help keep as much of the logic out of the html and in the code as possible. cl-emb might be able to handle the <% %> tags as a recent version seems familiar with server-side tags, but the thing I hate about these systems is that you end up with a big fat mess that cannot be seen properly, and embedding the language in the html leads to madness, I have been down that road, and have never been the same. :) cl-who is definitely NOT what you want to be working with, it will not allow for an easy back and forth between the two of you. I like cl-who for my own stuff but it is completely unfriendly to projects where you have a division of skills. I have never found the ideal way to handle this, plone templates come close, because they embed everything in tags, and extend the xhtml namespace, very nice, but you pay with a sacrifice if power. Personally I like cl-who but would never want to work with a visual/web designer with it. My 2 cents, I hope it helps. ;) Rohan P.S. I think the xslt idea is neat (despite my aversion to xslt itself), but will not help your situation. On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> wrote:
For this kind of cooperation, people usually use templating systems like, for example, my HTML-TEMPLATE. My experience is that this works quite well, at least to a certain extent.
Edi.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Larry Clapp <larry@theclapp.org> wrote:
Hi, list,
I am developing my first web app of any kind. I've no experience with other web app frameworks (like RoR or what have you). I am working with a friend, who knows Dreamweaver and other fairly high level web-design tools, but can't code at all. On the other hand, I don't know web-design at all, using tools or not, so we're pretty complementary.
So I'm seeking guidance on how I can continue to develop using Hunchentoot and cl-who, and yet integrate machine-generated html or css or what have you from Dreamweaver or other tools?
As I understand it, this is a known difficulty that other teams and tool designers have faced, and if I'd ever worked with any other teams or tools then it might be a no-brainer, but given my lack of experience in this respect I'm not even sure what to Google to find answers for myself.
I'd appreciate any advice, links, pointers, etc, that users of Hunchentoot and/or cl-who could provide. Thanks!
-- Larry Clapp
_______________________________________________ tbnl-devel site list tbnl-devel@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/tbnl-devel
_______________________________________________ tbnl-devel site list tbnl-devel@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/tbnl-devel
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Rohan Nicholls <rohan.nicholls@googlemail.com> wrote:
cl-emb might be able to handle the <% %> tags as a recent version
Oops, that was supposed to say "Dreamweaver might be able to handle ...". Sorry. Rohan
On 2009-04-01 15:37:50, Rohan Nicholls wrote:
Having looked around at the options listed so far, I would have to say HTML-TEMPLATE is looking like your best bet, as it is not going to make a horrible mess in dreamweaver. It looks a little verbose, but that should help keep as much of the logic out of the html and in the code as possible.
cl-emb might be able to handle the <% %> tags as a recent version seems familiar with server-side tags, but the thing I hate about these systems is that you end up with a big fat mess that cannot be seen properly, and embedding the language in the html leads to madness, I have been down that road, and have never been the same. :)
Just because it is possible to embed Common Lisp with CL-EMB doesn't mean you have to. -- Web (en): http://www.no-spoon.de/ -*- Web (de): http://www.frell.de/
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Stefan Scholl <stesch@no-spoon.de> wrote:
On 2009-04-01 15:37:50, Rohan Nicholls wrote:
Having looked around at the options listed so far, I would have to say HTML-TEMPLATE is looking like your best bet, as it is not going to make a horrible mess in dreamweaver. It looks a little verbose, but that should help keep as much of the logic out of the html and in the code as possible.
cl-emb might be able to handle the <% %> tags as a recent version seems familiar with server-side tags, but the thing I hate about these systems is that you end up with a big fat mess that cannot be seen properly, and embedding the language in the html leads to madness, I have been down that road, and have never been the same. :)
Just because it is possible to embed Common Lisp with CL-EMB doesn't mean you have to.
I agree, however it is a very slippery slope. The way to hell and all that. I am sure most of the projects I have worked on started with the best of intentions. :) Rohan
Hello Larry I emphatically second everyone else's advice: If you want to work with a designer you need to use a templating system. As someone who has actually journeyed down the other path and worked with a designer to engineer a reasonably complex web app using an embedded lisp approach (http://github.com/nallen05/watershed) I can tell you that it was without a doubt the worst technical decision of my life and it resulted in much wailing and gnashing of the teeth from everyone involved, including myself... Thankfully, for the next iteration of the same project, I had a chance to port of the Django templating language to Common Lisp: http://cloud.github.com/downloads/nallen05/djula/generated-documentation-dju... http://github.com/nallen05/djula and it was very much well received by both the designer and programmers involved until the project was finally ported to Python sometime after I left. Anyways, good luck with your project Take care Nick On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:23 AM, Edi Weitz <edi@agharta.de> wrote:
For this kind of cooperation, people usually use templating systems like, for example, my HTML-TEMPLATE. My experience is that this works quite well, at least to a certain extent.
Edi.
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Larry Clapp <larry@theclapp.org> wrote:
Hi, list,
I am developing my first web app of any kind. I've no experience with other web app frameworks (like RoR or what have you). I am working with a friend, who knows Dreamweaver and other fairly high level web-design tools, but can't code at all. On the other hand, I don't know web-design at all, using tools or not, so we're pretty complementary.
So I'm seeking guidance on how I can continue to develop using Hunchentoot and cl-who, and yet integrate machine-generated html or css or what have you from Dreamweaver or other tools?
As I understand it, this is a known difficulty that other teams and tool designers have faced, and if I'd ever worked with any other teams or tools then it might be a no-brainer, but given my lack of experience in this respect I'm not even sure what to Google to find answers for myself.
I'd appreciate any advice, links, pointers, etc, that users of Hunchentoot and/or cl-who could provide. Thanks!
-- Larry Clapp
_______________________________________________ tbnl-devel site list tbnl-devel@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/tbnl-devel
_______________________________________________ tbnl-devel site list tbnl-devel@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/tbnl-devel
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Larry Clapp <larry@theclapp.org> wrote:
Hi, list,
I am developing my first web app of any kind. I've no experience with other web app frameworks (like RoR or what have you). I am working with a friend, who knows Dreamweaver and other fairly high level web-design tools, but can't code at all. On the other hand, I don't know web-design at all, using tools or not, so we're pretty complementary.
So I'm seeking guidance on how I can continue to develop using Hunchentoot and cl-who, and yet integrate machine-generated html or css or what have you from Dreamweaver or other tools?
As I understand it, this is a known difficulty that other teams and tool designers have faced, and if I'd ever worked with any other teams or tools then it might be a no-brainer, but given my lack of experience in this respect I'm not even sure what to Google to find answers for myself.
I'd appreciate any advice, links, pointers, etc, that users of Hunchentoot and/or cl-who could provide. Thanks!
It would be fairly simple to write an XSLT stylesheet that converts the output of Dreamweaver (or whatever) into cl-who style forms. You take those forms, manually strip out the "Lorum Ipsum ...." content and replace it with forms that generate the actual data. I haven't actually done this myself (not fortunate enough to know a graphics person to help me) but given your constraints, that's how I'd probably do it. Another approach would be to turn the process on it's head. Have cl-who generate a static page with no style information at all and give that to the graphics guy. He then has to figure out the correct CSS incantations to make the page look equally pretty on all browsers. -- Andy
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:12:00PM -0400, Larry Clapp wrote:
I am developing my first web app of any kind. [snip] I'd appreciate any advice, links, pointers, etc, that users of Hunchentoot and/or cl-who could provide. Thanks!
Thanks to all who replied! I'll definitely look into templating mechanisms. -- Larry
I taught my web designer how to use cl-who in in an hour, because it looks very close to the actual html I think. On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 07:59 -0400, Larry Clapp wrote:
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:12:00PM -0400, Larry Clapp wrote:
I am developing my first web app of any kind. [snip] I'd appreciate any advice, links, pointers, etc, that users of Hunchentoot and/or cl-who could provide. Thanks!
Thanks to all who replied! I'll definitely look into templating mechanisms.
-- Larry
_______________________________________________ tbnl-devel site list tbnl-devel@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/tbnl-devel
participants (8)
-
Andy Chambers -
Chaitanya Gupta -
Edi Weitz -
Larry Clapp -
Nick Allen -
Phil Marneweck -
Rohan Nicholls -
Stefan Scholl