cells-devel

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567 discussions

[cells-devel] Celtk/Cells3 Compleat
by Ken Tilton 24 Mar '06

24 Mar '06

You can now grab Cells3 and Celtk from the c-l.net Cells repository. .\Celtk\ltktest-cells-inside.lisp has a load of doc inside it, including some on just Cells. Check out load.lisp in either source tree to build and run. (Checking next that I remembered to commit those, speaking of which, I use neither those nor ASDF when working, so they often have bugs. Speaking of which...) Bug reports or request for clarification on the doc exceedingly welcome. Otherwise, I will be getting to work on a commercial app using both these (as long as Tk holds up, which looks good so far). ken

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[cells-devel] deep-cells test and Cells 3 demo
by Ken Tilton 18 Mar '06

18 Mar '06

Writing the doc got scary, and I remembered that anyway I want to lean towards literate programming for doc, so I added more to the comments in integrity.lisp and created a test suit entry that shows a whole lot going on, including an ephemeral initialized to non-nil, and a client sort to get observer actions to come out in the right order. If anyone has questions, just ask. If it seems best, I'll respond by extending the code comments and pointing you to that. kt

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[cells-devel] Oops on Cells 3
by Ken Tilton 17 Mar '06

17 Mar '06

The test suite passes so y'all might be OK, but while working on some sample code for doc of Cells 3 I have found some misbehavior (observer called twice one awakening). I suggest you ignore Cells 3 until I get this resolved. kt

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[cells-devel] Cells 3 and Celtk committed to CVS
by Ken Tilton 16 Mar '06

16 Mar '06

This is weird, I know I sent this but did not get it as a list subscriber nor do I see it in my sent folder. Anyway, at pain of repeating myself. Cells 3 has been committed to CVS (not a new module, just Cells updated). Celtk is a new module, a portable Cells Inside GUI built atop the core of LTk. It requires Cells3. I may actually do a little Cells doc by way of explaining Cells3 differences. The big deal can be sorted out by examining the "finish-business" function. It makes apparent how Cells orchestrates orderly state change. Cells3 also enforces that, by yelping if one attempts a SETF in an observer -- you have to wrap the setf and any computation relevant to that setf: (with-integrity (:change) <be safe, wrap the whole observer form>) If this helps, here is what I had to do to port the test suite: [s/old/new/w is the VAX EDT editor command for subsitute/old/new/whole] s/def-c-output/defobserver/w The syntax is unchanged. Any setfs of input Cells you have in the body will cause a runtime error unless you wrap the form in with-integrity as discussed above. s/with-deference/with-integrity (:change)/w turns out all the wrapped forms were SETFs. I kinda like the idea of with-deference since, in the case of an observer setf, one really is asking for a deferred action. with-integrity is a "maybe" deal -- it says "go ahead if not already under integrity handling. s/make-be/make-instance/w special handling now handled in shared-initialize Forget to-be, not needed anymore When the Family code squawks about :fm-parent being required, add: :fm-parent self ...to the make-instance argument list. In some cases the instances were being made without a surrounding (c? ...) form. That is needed to have access to the parent instance self. btw, there is a make-kid macro that is just (make-instance ',class :fm-parent self ...). again, the cells engine yelps if it encounters a SETF needing wrapping in: (with-integrity (:change) (setf ...)) Celtk shows a complicated example of using the client queue to get a declarative Cells app to talk coherently to an imperative, order-sensitive system. kt

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[cells-devel] change of topics
by momerath 16 Mar '06

16 Mar '06

Hi, I'm thinking the cargo problem isn't as well-suited to Cells as some of the other things on my todo list. I picked it because it was simple, but I think I now grasp the direction that it would go; my basic disconnect was how a hash-table could be used as an input or intermediate cell. It looks to me now that I wouldn't gain much over my existing procedural/rule-based version by re-implementing it with Cells (at least short of implementing ZigZag first). On the other hand, the next big feature I'm going to implement is a dynamic economy simulation, which, I think, is exactly the type of system Cells would be good for modelling. So here is a description of a somewhat simplified system in english- (psuedo)code coming soon: -- The primary actors are Stations (space-stations). Stations have an inventory of Items. Items are either fundamental (ore) or produced from other Items (produced and fundamental). The required ingredients for each Item are static. Each Station has a set of Items which it produces, and by implication of the production requirements, a set of Items to stock. Initially, an arbitrary desired quantity of each item will determine when and how the Station takes steps to bring the quantity closer to the norm. The steps a station can take are: adjusting prices, producing a desired item from more plentiful ingredients, negotiating a shipment from another Station, and posting a mining mission (for ores). In shipping negotiation, the providing station determines its capability (items in stock?) and overhead (payment of player/npc traders and escorts (number determined by route danger)), and makes an offer to the receiving station (a procedural way of describing something that could be done in a more "push" or Cells-ish way). The receiving station accumulates offers for all stations that it does business with (whole other ball of wax), and then picks the cheapest. Shipments encounter danger and rarely make it through completely intact. At least initially, the payment is for goods received and the providing stations don't notice trends in route danger, so no risk/benefit analysis need be done. I think that covers the basics. In the future, some of the decisions would be put in the hands of planning agents (how much to stock, which stations to deal with, determining supply and demand curves, etc). -- While you think about that (if you get a chance), I'll try to implement it, and I'll post again when I get stuck or I've got something to critique. Thanks for the help, Michael

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[cells-devel] Cells 3 and Celtk committed to CVS
by Ken Tilton 16 Mar '06

16 Mar '06

I'll try to write something up tomorrow and probably put it in CVS as well as post it here. Celtk is a good Cells demo since it makes extensive use of the new client queue of deferred propagation tasks, as necessitated by Tk. Maybe someday it will be its own c-l.net project, but for now it is just a second module under in the Cells repository (well, there are others but they are deprecated.) kt

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[cells-devel] kickstart (fixed)
by momerath 16 Mar '06

16 Mar '06

Wow that was weird:) I used the google toolbar spellchecker right before sending, and it acted a bit odd, so I checked the sent copy and saw that it had left all the spellchecker formatting in the message! Here it is as plain text. There are still some extraneous spaces, but I don't think they'll make it hard to read, so... Thanks for getting back to me. I was beginning to wonder which of the 5 ways to interpret the silence :) I think it must be in the genes: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock's_Dilemma) Anyway, here is what I've got: ( defmodel cargo-hold () (ship-owner capacity ;; a set of cargo-types (types :cell t : initarg :types : initform nil) ;; cargo-type -> quantity (quantities :cell t : initarg :quantities : initform (make-hash-table)))) ( defmodel cargo () ;; a type-id, name and the number of ;; cargo-hold units it takes up (1-3) (type name volume ;; the character-id of the owner of ;; the cargo-hold unless cargo is spaced (holder :cell t : initarg :holder : initform (c-in nil) : accessor holder) ( auth-list :cell t : initarg : auth-list : initform nil : accessor auth-list) (recipient :cell t : initarg :recipient : initform nil : accessor recipient) (stolen :cell t : initarg :stolen : initform (c? (when (member (^holder) (^ auth-list)) t)) : accessor stolen) (spaced :cell t : initarg :spaced : initform (c? (when holder t)) : accessor spaced) (delivered :cell t : initarg :delivered : initform (c? (when ( eql (^holder) (^recipient)) t)) : accessor delivered))) The first thing you'll probably notice is that there is no mechanism for the cargo-holds to actually "contain" cargo objects. I know I could do as the "summer" example of the cell-basics doc does, and push them onto a list, and recalculate based on the whole list every time it changes, but I was hoping for something more elegant and efficient. Only one entry in the quantities hash needs to change when an item is added for instance. I thought of having in and out slots (set the slot to a cargo object to add or remove; the other slots do their thing and then clear the in/out slot), but that seems ugly and I wasn't even sure how to pull it off. And then there is the whole thing with cargo-sets which is closer to what I'd like to do with Cells on the larger scale. Basically what I want is to have a large number of sets and their unions/intersections efficiently accessible anywhere in my code- stuff like "all characters of faction X in sector Y carrying at least one Z in their cargo hold. I hope this makes my level of understanding more clear. I think I'm probably more prepared for the paradigm shift than most, owing, no doubt, to my long infatuation with Ted Nelson's ZigZag. ~Michael Warnock Guild Software Inc.

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[cells-devel] kickstart
by momerath 15 Mar '06

15 Mar '06

*Thanks for getting back to me. I was beginning to wonder which of the 5 ways to interpret the silence :) I think it must be in the genes: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock's_Dilemma) Anyway, here is what I've got: (defmodel cargo-hold () (ship-owner capacity ;; a set of cargo-types (types :cell t :initarg :types :initform nil) ;; cargo-type -> quantity (quantities :cell t :initarg :quantities :initform (make-hash-table)))) (defmodel cargo () ;; a type-id, name and the number of ;; cargo-hold units it takes up (1-3) (type name volume ;; the character-id of the owner of ;; the cargo-hold unless cargo is spaced (holder :cell t :initarg :holder :initform (c-in nil) :accessor holder) (auth-list :cell t :initarg :auth-list :initform nil :accessor auth-list) (recipient :cell t :initarg :recipient :initform nil :accessor recipient) (stolen :cell t :initarg :stolen :initform (c? (when (member (^holder) (^auth-list)) t)) :accessor stolen) (spaced :cell t :initarg :spaced :initform (c? (when holder t)) :accessor spaced) (delivered :cell t :initarg :delivered :initform (c? (when (eql (^holder) (^recipient)) t)) :accessor delivered))) The first thing you'll probably notice is that there is no mechanism for the cargo-holds to actually "contain" cargo objects. I know I could do as the "summer" example of the cell-basics doc does, and push them onto a list, and recalculate based on the whole list every time it changes, but I was hoping for something more elegant and efficient. Only one entry in the quantities hash needs to change when an item is added for instance. I thought of having in and out slots (set the slot to a cargo object to add or remove; the other slots do their thing and then clear the in/out slot), but that seems ugly and I wasn't even sure how to pull it off. And then there is the whole thing with cargo-sets which is closer to what I'd like to do with Cells on the larger scale. Basically what I want is to have a large number of sets and their unions/intersections efficiently accessible anywhere in my code- stuff like "all characters of faction X in sector Y carrying at least one Z in their cargo hold. I hope this makes my level of understanding more clear. I think I'm probably more prepared for the paradigm shift than most, owing, no doubt, to my long infatuation with Ted Nelson's ZigZag. ~Michael Warnock Guild Software Inc. *I've Ive Iver Ivie IV Edit... Revert to "i've" def model def-model defamed daffodil deformed Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary unitary intake interj Anitra Unitas Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary uniform inform infirm uniformer interim Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary unitary intake interj Anitra Unitas Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary uniform inform infirm uniformer interim Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary def model def-model defamed daffodil deformed Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary unitary intake interj Anitra Unitas Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary uniform inform infirm uniformer interim Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary accessory access or access-or access access's Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary ACTH Ruth auto Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary unitary intake interj Anitra Unitas Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary ACTH Ruth auto Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary uniform inform infirm uniformer interim Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary assessor access or access-or accessory access Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary ACTH Ruth auto Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary unitary intake interj Anitra Unitas Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary uniform inform infirm uniformer interim Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary assessor access or access-or accessory access Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary unitary intake interj Anitra Unitas Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary uniform inform infirm uniformer interim Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary ACTH Ruth auto Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary assessor access or access-or accessory access Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary unitary intake interj Anitra Unitas Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary uniform inform infirm uniformer interim Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary assessor access or access-or accessory access Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary unitary intake interj Anitra Unitas Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary uniform inform infirm uniformer interim Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary El Eal Erl eel ell Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary assessor access or access-or accessory access Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary Zigzag Zigzags Zigzag's Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary Warlock Wank Warwick Wonk Bannock Edit... Ignore all Add to dictionary

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[cells-devel] re: Hoping for a kickstart
by Ken Tilton 15 Mar '06

15 Mar '06

Hey, sorry again for the dropout, I was moving homes and emails... > > > [cells-devel] Hoping for a kickstartmomerath michael at guildsoftware.com > Sun Mar 5 20:10:09 EST 2006________________________________ > > my > initial attempt at using Cells for a very simple chunk of my own app was > frustrating. It really is a paradigm shift, so expect some whiplash. :) Backsliding, too: for months after discovering (and loving) Cells I would still fall into an imperative style when attacking some new functionality because that would get my head into start-from-scratch mode and I would fall back into my old ways. The neat thing is that after an hour I would get this creepy feeling and realize why. :) > > Rather than showing you the feeble start I made,... OK, but it will be easier for me to help you if I have a feel for how much you understand or do not, or where you are having trouble, and for that nothing beats your failed attempts. No need to be shy, because it does take a long time to start thinking declaratively, as I said. (But it is fun from the beginning, and really worth it.) That said.... > I'd like to > describe the desired functionality, and get some feedback as to the idiom(s) > to use. > > The primary classes are cargo items, cargo holds and maybe cargo sets. > > --Cargo items: > > slots that wouldnt change in the object's lifetime: > item-id > type-id > volume-units (1-3 currently) > > changable slots (c-in for now I imagine, but if Cells invades the rest of > the program, maybe not): > holder-id > authorized-holder-ids > recipient-id > > calculated states I want efficient repeated access to and/or side effects on > change: > stolen (holder isnt a member of auth-h-ids) > delivered (holder is recip) > spaced (holder is not a char but a sector) > > --Cargo holds: > > static: > ship-owner-id > capacity > > dynamic: > volume-used > cargo-type-to-quantity hash > > > --Cargo sets: > Basically I'd like to be able to create a cargo set that is bigger than any > cargo hold, and allow it to be distributed among the holds by both npc > agents and players, but retain a handle on the set and certain dynamic > subsets like the cargo in a particular ship, all the ships in a sector, all > spaced cargo, all > stolen cargo of a particular type in a sector, etc. If the set mechanism > were flexible and fast enough, I imagine that Holds could just be a type of > set (the set of cargo held by character X), but there is a question of where > to enforce hold capacity. These sets would be used by npc agents (eg > pirates) to drive potential actions (both at the level of posting a mission > to collect specific cargo, and a single agent picking the best cargo close > by that will fit in its hold). > > > So, I hope that made sense. Yes, but I have a suspicion (and your subject header confirms this) that we can duck all that complexity and still get you kickstarted. By which I mean, nothing there stands out as especially hard, there is just a lot of it. So let's get you up to speed on a declarative approach with the simplest subset you can carve out. Then you can start adding in complexity and holler again for help when you get stuck. And if you do not mind we can make this a Use Case for others to learn from (I happen to think the Black Book series of tech references (if you know it) is The Right Way to teach a system.) We might want to start with a game universe that already has three ships with varying numbers and sizes of holds, one set of cargo, and one recipient? Just make those in a hardcoded initializer. Later on you can worry about how the universe changes and how to have the model adjust dynamically to, say, a new ship. I will let you be the judge, just try to think up something dead simple based on your understanding. The key trick here, and I bet this is where you are stuck, is... how do things /happen/? Don't feel bad, if so; I always have trouble with this. Cell applications are like spreadsheets: they are great at expressing static computations over other spreadsheet cells, but the only thing that /happens/ is a spreadsheet user typing a change into one cell or another. If I am right, getting you over this hump really does not need much complexity at all, it might just be as simple as: how do I express an event such as "player allocates 50 tons of corn to Titanic, Hold 42"? After that you want to see an "unallocated amount" change, and you want to see the hold free space change, and you want to see the allocation in a list of cargo subsets. Hell, maybe I will toss off a quick Celtk demo complete with GUI. OK, back to you. Let me know if this makes sense or if you need something else. ken

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[cells-devel] DEF-C-OUTPUT and hello-world.lisp headscratcher
by Tayssir John Gabbour 12 Mar '06

12 Mar '06

Hi all, In cells-test/hello-world.lisp, when running DEF-C-OUTPUT, old-value seems always bound to nil. My understanding is it should be bound to the previous thing the slot was set to. Am I missing something? Sourcecode and repl output below (on SBCL PPC Darwin 0.9.9): (use-package :cells) (use-package :utils-kt) (defmodel computer () ((happen :cell :ephemeral :initform (c-in nil) :accessor happen) (location :cell t :initform (c? (case (^happen) (:leave :away) (:arrive :at-home) (t .cache))) ;; ie, unchanged :accessor location) (response :cell :ephemeral :initform nil :initarg :response :accessor response))) (flet ((fmt (name new-value old-value-boundp old-value) (format t "~%~A: ~15A (previously ~:[an unbound ~A~;~A~])" name new-value old-value-boundp old-value))) (def-c-output response (self new-value old-value old-value-boundp) (fmt "response" new-value old-value-boundp old-value)) (def-c-output happen (self new-value old-value old-value-boundp) (fmt "happen " new-value old-value-boundp old-value)) (def-c-output location (self new-value old-value old-value-boundp) (fmt "location" new-value old-value-boundp old-value))) (defun hello-world () (let ((dell (make-be 'computer :response (c? (bwhen (h (happen self)) (if (eql (^location) :at-home) (case h (:knock-knock "who's there?") (:world "hello, world.")) "<silence>")))))) (dotimes (n 2) (setf (happen dell) :knock-knock)) (setf (happen dell) :arrive) (setf (happen dell) :knock-knock) (setf (happen dell) :world) (values))) ;; At the repl: CL-USER> (hello-world) ---- ;;; instancing object... happen : NIL (previously an unbound NIL) location: NIL (previously NIL) response: NIL (previously NIL) ;;; instanced object #<COMPUTER {10F59309}> ---- happen : KNOCK-KNOCK (previously NIL) response: <silence> (previously NIL) happen : KNOCK-KNOCK (previously NIL) response: <silence> (previously NIL) happen : ARRIVE (previously NIL) location: AT-HOME (previously NIL) happen : KNOCK-KNOCK (previously NIL) response: who's there? (previously NIL) happen : WORLD (previously NIL) response: hello, world. (previously NIL) Thanks, Tayssir

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