Hi,
What's the current state of common-lisp.net ?
I'm asking because at ELS'13 I have been informed that the mailing list links on some of the pages I maintain don't work anymore (CDR and Closer to MOP). This seems to be an effect of the move from mailman to whatever system is used now. I contacted the maintainer of common-lisp.net about this, to ask what URLs to use instead, but I'm not getting any responses.
At ELS'13 there was also a lightning talk about the common-lisp.net situation, but I didn't catch all the details. Could somebody repeat what was said then? And more specifically, how do others deal with the mailing list changes?
Thanks, Pascal
-- Pascal Costanza
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Pascal Costanza pc@p-cos.net wrote:
At ELS'13 there was also a lightning talk about the common-lisp.net situation, but I didn't catch all the details. Could somebody repeat what was said then? And more specifically, how do others deal with the mailing list changes?
According to the lightning talk at ECLM (I'm guessing that's the one you're referring to), there is hope that the previous services will be restored. Meanwhile, the mailing lists are being managed using mlmmj (http://mlmmj.org/) which does not have a web interface, AFAICT.
Users will have to send an email to your-list+subscribe@common-lisp.net to subscribe. Send an email to your-list+help@common-lisp.net too see all the commands that are available.
HTH,
-- Luís Oliveira http://r42.eu/~luis/
Who do I need to talk to volunteer to work on common-lisp.net? I poked around the site looking for an email address or something and don't remember seeing anything obvious.
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 5:25 AM, Luís Oliveira luismbo@gmail.com wrote:
According to the lightning talk at ECLM (I'm guessing that's the one you're referring to), there is hope that the previous services will be restored. Meanwhile, the mailing lists are being managed using mlmmj (http://mlmmj.org/) which does not have a web interface, AFAICT.
There must be a very compelling reason to switch if it doesn't support what mailman has by default.
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Clint Moore clint@ivy.io wrote:
Who do I need to talk to volunteer to work on common-lisp.net? I poked around the site looking for an email address or something and don't remember seeing anything obvious.
The mailing list where common-lisp.net administrators and other users hang out is clo-devel@common-lisp.net. However, the current state of common-lisp.net was not caused by lack of resources. IIUC, one of the administrators decided to single-handedly migrate most (but not all) of the services running on c-l.net to a new box. In the process, Apache was changed nginx, mailman to mlmmj, etc.
The issue at hand is therefore political rather than technical.
Meanwhile, the mailing lists are being managed using mlmmj (http://mlmmj.org/) which does not have a web interface, AFAICT.
There must be a very compelling reason to switch if it doesn't support what mailman has by default.
I think everybody shares that sentiment except for the aforementioned admin.
-- Luís Oliveira http://r42.eu/~luis/
Hey,
Thank you for informing me on what is being said behind my back, that helps me to decide on my future quite a bit :)
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Luís Oliveira luismbo@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Clint Moore clint@ivy.io wrote:
Who do I need to talk to volunteer to work on common-lisp.net? I
poked
around the site looking for an email address or something and don't
remember
seeing anything obvious.
The mailing list where common-lisp.net administrators and other users hang out is clo-devel@common-lisp.net. However, the current state of common-lisp.net was not caused by lack of resources. IIUC, one of the administrators decided to single-handedly migrate most (but not all) of the services running on c-l.net to a new box. In the process, Apache was changed nginx, mailman to mlmmj, etc.
Well, in my opinion that is completely different from actually happened, and given that I am now the only admin of a site that I do not use, and did not 'decide' to 'migrate' but rather 'did not have the $foo it would take to keep the box up another month', I am wondering what politricksian you were speaking with that told you?
Here is the situation :
1) I have never been an administrater of CL-NET till recently, just a 'donation' of the box itself from 2007 or so until the near future. 2) I was told that the business who runs the dedicated service are shutting down, and the box will go with it. 3) I asked for help, and others who knew apache. exim and mailman to please help me because I do not know those things. 4) I did not receive any help, and the box was going to be shutdown unless I paid a lot to keep it up an extra month. 5) I paid a lot, and asked for help again while I had to move things. 6) I tried to moved things over gradually, but the people who do use it for releases of their software and needed it up, so I paid twice as much to leave it up for an extra week or so. 7) Now I hear complaints and political talk, yet nobody volunteers to take over, and apparently there is politricks involved. 8) I still ask for help, and will here again : "I would like some help because I do not use this site and those who do use it may know a bit more about that they need"
The issue at hand is therefore political rather than technical.
Can you please inform me of the politricks? The reason that I had to move from mailman to mlmmj is because I know mlmmj technically, and I know postmodern and postgresql more then I know exim + whatever. So, having been the one that 'started the issue' for technical reasons,. would like to know the politicians who are in competition with me for common-lisp.net, and if they would like to take over?
I wish that political things were not as important to Common Lispers as simply having things running, but if folks do not want what I did my best to keep up, then please contact me about taking over. If you do not want to take over but simply want something that is not there yet, clo-devel is a good place to ask I guess.
Meanwhile, the mailing lists are being managed using mlmmj (http://mlmmj.org/) which does not have a web interface, AFAICT.
There must be a very compelling reason to switch if it doesn't support what mailman has by default.
I think everybody shares that sentiment except for the aforementioned admin.
Given that I am the only admin, well, I am glad to be told of what others think of me. thank you ;)
-- drewc
-- Luís Oliveira http://r42.eu/~luis/
Drew C me@drewc.ca writes:
Hey,
Thank you for informing me on what is being said behind my back, that helps me to decide on my future quite a bit :)
I'm going to assume that this isn't directed at me, but if I'm wrong, please understand that, while that wasn't the intent, I apoligise.
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Luís Oliveira luismbo@gmail.com wrote:
Well, in my opinion that is completely different from actually happened, and given that I am now the only admin of a site that I do not use, and did not 'decide' to 'migrate' but rather 'did not have the $foo it would take to keep the box up another month', I am wondering what politricksian you were speaking with that told you?
Here is the situation :
- I have never been an administrater of CL-NET till recently, just a
'donation' of the box itself from 2007 or so until the near future. 2) I was told that the business who runs the dedicated service are shutting down, and the box will go with it. 3) I asked for help, and others who knew apache. exim and mailman to please help me because I do not know those things. 4) I did not receive any help, and the box was going to be shutdown unless I paid a lot to keep it up an extra month. 5) I paid a lot, and asked for help again while I had to move things. 6) I tried to moved things over gradually, but the people who do use it for releases of their software and needed it up, so I paid twice as much to leave it up for an extra week or so. 7) Now I hear complaints and political talk, yet nobody volunteers to take over, and apparently there is politricks involved. 8) I still ask for help, and will here again : "I would like some help because I do not use this site and those who do use it may know a bit more about that they need"
The issue at hand is therefore political rather than technical.
Can you please inform me of the politricks? The reason that I had to move from mailman to mlmmj is because I know mlmmj technically, and I know postmodern and postgresql more then I know exim + whatever. So, having been the one that 'started the issue' for technical reasons,. would like to know the politicians who are in competition with me for common-lisp.net, and if they would like to take over?
I wish that political things were not as important to Common Lispers as simply having things running, but if folks do not want what I did my best to keep up, then please contact me about taking over. If you do not want to take over but simply want something that is not there yet, clo-devel is a good place to ask I guess.
That's quite a different situation.
I would like to volunteer to maintain and pay for keeping common-lisp.net around into the forseeable future, though no one in the community knows me which might or might not be an issue.
If I may be so bold as to ask for access to the backups or tarball of the machine, I could bring up a box with everything working and submit it for review to whomever, and if it's acceptable we could simply point common-lisp.net to it.
I'm a long time lurker and unknown in the community but I'd also love to help out with this (time, technical expertise, money, whatever).
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Clint Moore clint@ivy.io wrote:
Drew C me@drewc.ca writes:
Hey,
Thank you for informing me on what is being said behind my back, that
helps
me to decide on my future quite a bit :)
I'm going to assume that this isn't directed at me, but if I'm wrong, please understand that, while that wasn't the intent, I apoligise.
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Luís Oliveira luismbo@gmail.com
wrote:
Well, in my opinion that is completely different from actually happened, and given that I am now the only admin of a site that I do not use, and
did
not 'decide' to 'migrate' but rather 'did not have the $foo it would take to keep the box up another month', I am wondering what politricksian you were speaking with that told you?
Here is the situation :
- I have never been an administrater of CL-NET till recently, just a
'donation' of the box itself from 2007 or so until the near future. 2) I was told that the business who runs the dedicated service are
shutting
down, and the box will go with it. 3) I asked for help, and others who knew apache. exim and mailman to
please
help me because I do not know those things. 4) I did not receive any help, and the box was going to be shutdown
unless
I paid a lot to keep it up an extra month. 5) I paid a lot, and asked for help again while I had to move things. 6) I tried to moved things over gradually, but the people who do use it
for
releases of their software and needed it up, so I paid twice as much to leave it up for an extra week or so. 7) Now I hear complaints and political talk, yet nobody volunteers to
take
over, and apparently there is politricks involved. 8) I still ask for help, and will here again : "I would like some help because I do not use this site and those who do use it may know a bit
more
about that they need"
The issue at hand is therefore political rather than technical.
Can you please inform me of the politricks? The reason that I had to move from mailman to mlmmj is because I know mlmmj technically, and I know postmodern and postgresql more then I know exim + whatever. So, having
been
the one that 'started the issue' for technical reasons,. would like to
know
the politicians who are in competition with me for common-lisp.net, and
if
they would like to take over?
I wish that political things were not as important to Common Lispers as simply having things running, but if folks do not want what I did my best to keep up, then please contact me about taking over. If you do not want
to
take over but simply want something that is not there yet, clo-devel is a good place to ask I guess.
That's quite a different situation.
I would like to volunteer to maintain and pay for keeping common-lisp.net around into the forseeable future, though no one in the community knows me which might or might not be an issue.
If I may be so bold as to ask for access to the backups or tarball of the machine, I could bring up a box with everything working and submit it for review to whomever, and if it's acceptable we could simply point common-lisp.net to it.
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Brian Taylor el.wubo@gmail.com wrote:
I'm a long time lurker and unknown in the community but I'd also love to help out with this (time, technical expertise, money, whatever).
I do not have much to say, except that common-lisp.net was useful for ECL at some point (not now) and some impressions about "what people are saying".
I recall from the ECLM brief talk about lisp.not.org which was originated by common-lisp.net users including ABCL developers due to the claimed lacked of answers / responsiveness from common-lisp.net and the disruptive changes.
They seem willing to take over common-lisp.net and have both resources and time to do so. Moreover, while Drew says he did not get help they claim that help was not accepted, making this a rather sterile discussion.
As somebody with less and less time to devote to free projects, can but I sympathize with Drew, but maybe it is time to step down from a little rewarding job.
Juanjo
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:32 AM, Anton Vodonosov avodonosov@yandex.ruwrote:
Hans, could you estimate from you experience during the last years, how much man-hours per year it took to admin cl.net?
I spent between 30 and 90 minutes each month running the mailing lists (bounce processing, user creation, user requests).
[...] So I agree, the current problems are caused by political issue:
Who "owns" cl.net? Who have right to object to changes or vote about the future? How decisions are made?
My reason to stop wanting to maintain common-lisp.net was political: Drew came up with a new common-lisp.net without involving me or others. He set up a new system and infrastructure and then offered me that I could continue to contribute on that new technology stack he had chosen and set up. I was not interested, partly because I was not part of the technology selection process, partly because I did not have time to learn new technology stack without having a good reason to do so.
The trouble with common-lisp.net is that even though it is a useful service, it is not of vital importance to the community that uses it. There are other hosting options, and in particular source code hosting is something that common-lisp.net's primary purpose used to be, but that most projects no longer use. The biggest value of common-lisp.net is that it provides history in forms of URLs and working communication channels, in terms of the mailing lists. It would be in the best interest of the community to re-establish those services as they were before the migration happened.
The new mailing list software is inferior to mailman: It provides no web interface, no archiving that I see, no per-list configurability, no fine grained moderation options. The change to that new software has been disruptive to users because subject tagging is no longer done, and new filters had to be created to get incoming list email sorted away. While there may be other, invisible advantages of the new software, the switchover did not happen in the interest of the users.
-Hans
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Drew C me@drewc.ca wrote:
- I was told that the business who runs the dedicated service are shutting
down, and the box will go with it.
This is something I didn't know. I spoke to several c-l.net users at ECLM and nobody was aware of this.
- I asked for help, and others who knew apache. exim and mailman to please
help me because I do not know those things. 4) I did not receive any help, and the box was going to be shutdown unless I paid a lot to keep it up an extra month.
Again, I follow clo-devel@common-lisp.net and this was never mentioned.
Given that I am the only admin, well, I am glad to be told of what others think of me. thank you ;)
Please don't take this personally. Surely you realize that there was a gross communication failure. All that users saw was c-l.net going down without warning, c-l.net being down for a while, followed by it coming back up with different software and a site redesign.
Cheers,
-- Luís Oliveira http://r42.eu/~luis/
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Luís Oliveira luismbo@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Drew C me@drewc.ca wrote:
- I was told that the business who runs the dedicated service are
shutting
down, and the box will go with it.
This is something I didn't know. I spoke to several c-l.net users at ECLM and nobody was aware of this.
The downtime really happened all of a sudden, I was trying to migrate things one at a time, but the dedicated hosting company did not quite do something 'right'.
http://common-lisp.net/news/2013/03/05_the-server-must-move.html was really the first time I was made aware of it, and the first time asking for help.
- I asked for help, and others who knew apache. exim and mailman to
please
help me because I do not know those things. 4) I did not receive any help, and the box was going to be shutdown
unless I
paid a lot to keep it up an extra month.
Again, I follow clo-devel@common-lisp.net and this was never mentioned.
Probably my bad. I tried, it was rejected as spam, and I could not seem to send it legitimately before things really went down.
Given that I am the only admin, well, I am glad to be told of what others think of me. thank you ;)
Please don't take this personally. Surely you realize that there was a gross communication failure. All that users saw was c-l.net going down without warning, c-l.net being down for a while, followed by it coming back up with different software and a site redesign.
Sorry if it came of as taking it personally... and I agree that there was a communication failure. Again it is all likely my fault, but this all happened so fast that I did not do exactly what I wanted/needed.
Cheers,
-- Luís Oliveira http://r42.eu/~luis/
-
Anton Vodonosov -
Brian Taylor -
Clint Moore -
Drew C -
Hans Hübner -
Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll -
Luís Oliveira -
Pascal Costanza