[pro] lisp on mobile platforms these days
dear lispers, what is the state of the art in running lisp (not just CL) on mobile platforms, preferably in a portable way? is mkcl viable to run as a native app both on iOS and android? if iOS has too many legal constraints and whatnot, then let's forget it for now. what are the downsides of connecting to the NDK (android C API)? how much of android is not available through the NDK? -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- Paralysis through analysis.
On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Attila Lendvai <attila.lendvai@gmail.com>wrote:
dear lispers,
what is the state of the art in running lisp (not just CL) on mobile platforms, preferably in a portable way?
There was an ECL port attempt but I didn't track it too closely lately I remember vaguely that a few scheme would be available and I thing CCL is also in the picture. I'd rather talk for MKCL if you don't mind.
is mkcl viable to run as a native app both on iOS and android?
right now it is not, period. But it is on my list of things to do any month now. As soon as I get the ffi to be C99-complete as I say, and that I am done with the proper interface to the "environment" (that CLTL2 thing, you know) I will get right to it.
if iOS has too many legal constraints and whatnot, then let's forget it for now.
I worked up a few thing that should be able to accommodate it pretty well I think. Basically, MKCL is now layered in at least two levels with the lowest surely to the taste of the most paranoid, well I hope. I see it as a cheap and easy tree shaker.
what are the downsides of connecting to the NDK (android C API)? how much of android is not available through the NDK?
Haven't touched it yet.
-- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- Paralysis through analysis.
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There was an ECL port attempt but I didn't track it too closely lately I remember vaguely that a few scheme would be available and I thing CCL is also in the picture. I'd rather talk for MKCL if you don't mind.
not at all, especially if i understand correctly ECL is unmaintained and MKCL is an alive fork.
is mkcl viable to run as a native app both on iOS and android?
right now it is not, period. But it is on my list of things to do any month now. As soon as I get the ffi to be C99-complete as I say, and that I am done with the proper interface to the "environment" (that CLTL2 thing, you know) I will get right to it.
porting to android sounds like a fun project. see you on mkcl-devel... :) FTR, there's this commercial lisp: https://wukix.com/mocl and this thread with some comments of interest: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1lemlk/best_lisp_repl_for_android_tabl... and then there's probably the most viable: http://gambitscheme.org/ especially this project based on gambit. after a very cursory search, this seems to be the most inviting/interesting without actually trying it: http://www.lambdanative.org/ i personally won't touch any non-opensource solution when i'm venturing into such uncharted territory. in that case being able to fix stuff myself is priority for me. -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- “I will probably be asked why I don't cite the author's name? Because my philosophy teacher taught me that it sometimes jeopardizes the effects of the quote.” — Author's name withheld.
On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Attila Lendvai <attila.lendvai@gmail.com>wrote:
There was an ECL port attempt but I didn't track it too closely lately I remember vaguely that a few scheme would be available and I thing CCL is also in the picture. I'd rather talk for MKCL if you don't mind.
not at all, especially if i understand correctly ECL is unmaintained and MKCL is an alive fork.
You are probably too hard on ECL (at least somewhat). But you are right that MKCL is alive and I would even add that it is moving pretty fast under the public surface...
is mkcl viable to run as a native app both on iOS and android?
right now it is not, period. But it is on my list of things to do any month now. As soon as I get the ffi to be C99-complete as I say, and that I am done with the proper interface to the "environment" (that CLTL2 thing, you know) I will get right to it.
porting to android sounds like a fun project. see you on mkcl-devel... :)
Well, you may have a few difficulties subscribing to mkcl-devel since common-lisp.net is currently going through yet another great shake up. The mailing lists are back under mailman control again but I have not taken time to update the MKCL web page about it. Here is the link that I should put back: http://mailman.common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mkcl-devel
FTR, there's this commercial lisp:
and this thread with some comments of interest:
http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1lemlk/best_lisp_repl_for_android_tabl...
and then there's probably the most viable:
Yes, Gambit-C by Marc Feeley is the scheme I had most in mind but I wasn't sure enough of my memory to spell it out.
especially this project based on gambit. after a very cursory search, this seems to be the most inviting/interesting without actually trying it:
Looks impressive! Thanks for the hint.
Well, you may have a few difficulties subscribing to mkcl-devel since common-lisp.net is currently going through yet another great shake up. The mailing lists are back under mailman control again but I have not taken time to update the MKCL web page about it. Here is the link that I should put back:
http://mailman.common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mkcl-devel
FYI, subscription works also based on your current description. seems like mailman has been configured to be compatible with whatever was used before that. (i've subscribed by sending a mail to mkcl-devel+subscribe@common-lisp.net and when i tried to subscribe again thorugh the mailmain web interface i got an alert that i'm already subscribed) -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- “You tell me what you mean by God, and I'll tell you whether I believe in him or not!” — E. O. James
On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 3:45 AM, Attila Lendvai <attila.lendvai@gmail.com>wrote:
Well, you may have a few difficulties subscribing to mkcl-devel since common-lisp.net is currently going through yet another great shake up. The mailing lists are back under mailman control again but I have not taken time to update the MKCL web page about it. Here is the link that I should put back:
http://mailman.common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mkcl-devel
FYI, subscription works also based on your current description. seems like mailman has been configured to be compatible with whatever was used before that.
Pleasant surprise!
Yasuaki Honda has ported Maxima (including it's 3d graphing) to Android. Maxima is the open source DOE version of the huge and ancient Macsyma symbolic algebra system, ported to Common Lisp. Honda used Ageneau's ECL port to Android. See http://maxima.sourceforge.net then the link to related projects. Sources should be available there, and a Maxima Android binary is downloadable directly from the Play store. On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 9:18 PM, Attila Lendvai <attila.lendvai@gmail.com>wrote:
dear lispers,
what is the state of the art in running lisp (not just CL) on mobile platforms, preferably in a portable way?
is mkcl viable to run as a native app both on iOS and android?
if iOS has too many legal constraints and whatnot, then let's forget it for now.
what are the downsides of connecting to the NDK (android C API)? how much of android is not available through the NDK?
-- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- Paralysis through analysis.
_______________________________________________ pro mailing list pro@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pro
On Sun, 27 Apr 2014, Attila Lendvai wrote:
what are the downsides of connecting to the NDK (android C API)? how much of android is not available through the NDK?
When I tried using Lisp on Android a couple years ago, the going was rough to say the least. Today, there are a handful of Scheme implementations, Maxima, and other Lisps on the Play Store that seem to work pretty well. Unfortunately, time is short lately. I did get a bit of experience with Android and the NDK. NDK applications are quite feasible, but they are discouraged by Google and so the documentation and tooling is less refined. Basically, "Android" is a heavily modified Linux distribution with a Java-based desktop interface. So C/C++ and other NDK programs and libraries will run much as they do on any other Linux distribution. Android uses a custom Java VM (Dalvik) to enable application portability across different architectures. NDK programs must be compiled separately for each supported architecture, possibly with multiple architectures in an APK (application package). https://developer.android.com/tools/sdk/ndk/index.html#Contents So if you have your own GUI library (say using OpenGL ES), you can write the whole application as a "Native Activity". https://developer.android.com/reference/android/app/NativeActivity.html Or run your apps on the command line using a program like Terminal IDE. For everything else, you can use JNI bindings. The coding style is similar to using FFI bindings to talk to C libraries. On desktop systems, there are often conflicts between the GC mechanisms used by CL and Java, so this would be something to watch out for on Android as well. The JFLI and CL+J projects were attempts at CL bindings to the JNI. I haven't looked whether the JNI offered by Dalvik would require any modifications to these projects. CCL has an implementation of JFLI and ARMv7 support, so it might be a viable solution on some tablets. http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/browser/trunk/source/examples/jfli http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/ReleaseNotes/1.9 - Daniel
For everything else, you can use JNI bindings. The coding style is similar to using FFI bindings to talk to C libraries. On desktop systems, there are often conflicts between the GC mechanisms used by CL and Java, so this would be something to watch out for on Android as well.
In particular, you shouldn't be surprised if JNI's DetachCurrentThread bites you from behind. (When I was working with Rich Hickey's JFLI a few years back, this call typically SEGVed in foriegn code or caused random corruption in Java internals. I ended up recycling threads myself rather than letting them go altogether.) - nick
On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:18:17 +0600, Attila Lendvai said:
dear lispers,
what is the state of the art in running lisp (not just CL) on mobile platforms, preferably in a portable way?
is mkcl viable to run as a native app both on iOS and android?
if iOS has too many legal constraints and whatnot, then let's forget it for now.
We are working on targeting mobile devices and are currently seeking alpha testers. Please contact us directly if you would like to build a Common Lisp runtime for iOS or Android. We're not going to publish further details yet, so please don't ask here. -- Martin Simmons LispWorks Ltd http://www.lispworks.com/
Martin, do you have LispWorks running in AWS? --Scott On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Martin Simmons <martin@lispworks.com>wrote:
On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:18:17 +0600, Attila Lendvai said:
dear lispers,
what is the state of the art in running lisp (not just CL) on mobile platforms, preferably in a portable way?
is mkcl viable to run as a native app both on iOS and android?
if iOS has too many legal constraints and whatnot, then let's forget it for now.
We are working on targeting mobile devices and are currently seeking alpha testers. Please contact us directly if you would like to build a Common Lisp runtime for iOS or Android.
We're not going to publish further details yet, so please don't ask here.
-- Martin Simmons LispWorks Ltd http://www.lispworks.com/
_______________________________________________ pro mailing list pro@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pro
I've not tried myself, but most programs will run (isn't AWS just another VM)? -- Martin Simmons LispWorks Ltd http://www.lispworks.com/
On Wed, 30 Apr 2014 13:37:03 -0400, Scott McKay said:
Martin, do you have LispWorks running in AWS?
--Scott
On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Martin Simmons <martin@lispworks.com>wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:18:17 +0600, Attila Lendvai said:
dear lispers,
what is the state of the art in running lisp (not just CL) on mobile platforms, preferably in a portable way?
is mkcl viable to run as a native app both on iOS and android?
if iOS has too many legal constraints and whatnot, then let's forget it for now.
We are working on targeting mobile devices and are currently seeking alpha testers. Please contact us directly if you would like to build a Common Lisp runtime for iOS or Android.
We're not going to publish further details yet, so please don't ask here.
-- Martin Simmons LispWorks Ltd http://www.lispworks.com/
_______________________________________________ pro mailing list pro@common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pro
On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:18:17 +0600 Attila Lendvai <attila.lendvai@gmail.com> wrote:
dear lispers,
what is the state of the art in running lisp (not just CL) on mobile platforms, preferably in a portable way?
As another possibility than ECL-based solutions, with http://www.robovm.org/ it might be possible to have a fairly portable Java code base between Android and iOS devices, with the possibility of using Clojure or ABCL. I have no personal experience with Clojure or ABCL for Android, but I assume that it wouldn't be too difficult to make that work. -- Matt
participants (8)
-
Attila Lendvai -
Daniel Herring -
Jean-Claude Beaudoin -
Martin Simmons -
Matthew Mondor -
Nick Levine -
Scott McKay -
Steve Haflich