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[chicago-lisp] Vote: Our group's name
by John Quigley 13 Dec '06

13 Dec '06

Okay, to move things along, let's take a vote for our group's name. These are the candidates: * Chicago Lispniks * Chicago Lithpers * Chicago Artificial Intelligence Group * Chicago Area Programming Languages Group (Chicago APL Group) * Chicago Area Many Languages Group (CAML Group) * Chicago Lispy Group * Chicago Functional Language Group * Chicago Lispits * Chicago LISPers and Friends * Chicago Area LISPies et al * Chicago LISPit * Chicago Lisp and Programming Language Group (ChiLPL - "chill pill") Please follow up in this thread with a blank response except for one of the above names. If you have thoughts, concerns, issues, please start another thread. Thanks! - John Quigley

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[chicago-lisp] Aha! moments in LISP
by David Douthitt 12 Dec '06

12 Dec '06

A Smalltalker (another *great* language) who enjoys LISP almost as much took note of a thread about Aha! moments in LISP. Check out what he has to say and the thread itself: http://onsmalltalk.com/programming/smalltalk/aha-moments-in-lisp/

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[chicago-lisp] Something I've noticed....
by David Douthitt 11 Dec '06

11 Dec '06

I've noticed in recent years that my favorite (three) languages share some things in common: * None of them are "mainstream" or "standard" (which, for those who know history, basically means: not *Algol* based) * All of them work within their own "image" or environment. * The idea of a "stand-alone executable" is a anethema and an alien concept. * All of them encourage "rapid prototyping" * All of them encourage programming "from the bottom up" * All of them strongly encourage "small" programming units. * And: all three of them incorporate totally different programming models :-) What three are they? LISP (of course)..... and FORTH, and Smalltalk. I didn't put all these factors together until about a year ago. So: what are *your* favorite concepts in LISP (and other languages)? I might add I'm a real fan of OOP, so I'm bound to learn CLOS sooner or later.... -- David Douthitt HP-UX, Solaris, Unixware, Linux, FreeBSD RHCE, SCSA, Linux+, LPIC-1 http://www.lulu.com/ssrat

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[chicago-lisp] [Fwd: [ANNOUNCE] PL/scheme 0.9 Released]
by David Douthitt 11 Dec '06

11 Dec '06

Thought this might be of interest - add another program enhanced by Scheme... -------- Original Message -------- Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 00:31:20 +0200 From: Volkan YAZICI <yazicivo(a)ttnet.net.tr> To: pgsql-announce(a)postgresql.org Subject: [ANNOUNCE] PL/scheme 0.9 Released Message-ID: <20061209223119.GA1338@alamut> Freelance Incorporation is pleased to announce the PL/scheme 0.9, the first initial release of the Scheme procedural language handler for PostgreSQL. PL/scheme is a PostgreSQL procedural language handler for Scheme programming language released under BSD license. PL/scheme uses Guile in the background as its Scheme interpreter. You can find some of the supported features by PL/scheme in the below list. o. Extensible native type support even for not created yet SQL data types. Domain, complex (ie. table's row) and pseudo (record) types are supported as well. o. [Nested] record and row types are supported both when returning a record type and as an argument to the procedure, o. IN, INOUT and OUT argument mode functionality, o. SPI functionality, o. Trigger support, o. Caching for non-volatile (and non-SRF) procedures per [top] transaction, o. Globally shared variables support, o. Support for both trusted and untrusted PL modes, o. and any available feature supported by Guile (fully R5RS compliancy, module system extension, full access to POSIX system calls, networking support, multiple threads, dynamic linking, foreign function call interface, powerful string processing, GOOPS framework, lots of builtin SRFIs and may others) are naturally shipped with PL/scheme too. You can find more information about the project and installation in the website at http://plscheme.projects.postgresql.org/ There's also an extensive WYSIWYG documentation about the shipped features along PL/scheme. PL/scheme is evolved from the PL/parrot ideas of David Fetter, therefore so much thanks to him for his inspiration. Also, many thanks to Rob Browning, Ludovic Courtès and Dale P. Smith from #guile at irc.freenode.net for their kindly help. Regards.

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[chicago-lisp] experience using LAML?
by Vinay Doma 11 Dec '06

11 Dec '06

Have any of you guys used LAML(http://www.cs.auc.dk/~normark/laml/) to generate and maintain web content? Lisp/Scheme generally seems well suited to generate html markup, but I was wondering how this compares to other web scripting toolkits. Also what other good alternatives are there in the lisp world? Thanks, Vinay

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[chicago-lisp] What lisp based applications do people use?
by Corey Sweeney 11 Dec '06

11 Dec '06

Hey, I was wondering, what lisp extensible applications do people use? Ones that I use, that I can think of right away are: text editor - emacs - (uses emacs lisp) WYSIWYG editor - texmacs - (uses scheme) ("guile") paint program - the gimp - (uses scheme) ("siod" i think) I've been screwing around with (but not actually properly "using") gnotime a time tracking application I don't actively use these next ones anymore, but used to use them: sawmill window manager (now called sawfish?) -- when netscape didn't have the ability to fill in forms automatically for me, sawmill could :) and siag office too, but siag office is no longer included in distributions. What other lisp extensible apps does everyone use? Corey -- ((lambda (y) (y y)) (lambda (y) (y y)))

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Re: [chicago-lisp] What lisp based applications do people use?
by Andrew Wolven 11 Dec '06

11 Dec '06

--- Corey Sweeney <corey.sweeney(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hmm, could you mention what Mirai is? lol From > what your saying I'm > guessing it's really expensive cad software. Hrm. Oh Yeah, Mirai is the next phase in the life of the Symbolics S-Packages. It's own company now, I guess run by Larry Malone. The symbolics s-packages were and still are cutting edge animation software. Mirai has been reportedly used in movies like the lord of the rings, and is a secret weapon among certain animators. It's animation software. Not CAD software. But Allegro is my CAD software And miria is allegro with the best Graphics software available in Lisp. It's a no brainer combination. You could Load maxima into the world and plot things. Plotting wouldn't be simple, but it would be a lot easier than if you are doing it with C++. I could go on an on about it. It's making me want to get it out and try to debug things. I have one evening and two more days of college left. I have been writing reports for days now, on two programs for my classes. I'm coming down to the wire and I am very close to finishing, but I am experiencing block after working on it straight for so long. I could spend years working with Mirai, it's just such a wonderful graphical colorful animated place to work on engineering. But there is no support. back to work... AKW P.S. I was being overly dramatic in my last email. Really. > > Corey > > On 12/10/06, Andrew Wolven <awolven(a)yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > I haven't read the thread but I will answer the > > question... or...would use if the company were not > so > > vaporous. > > > > Mirai. I have Allegro 5.0.1 based Mirai. > > Unfortunately it breaks down alot on windows XP. > The > > most fun part...the renderer. They had gotten rid > of > > the lisp renderer because when they first ported > to > > allegro it was too slow, and some dumb thing, > dealing > > with the shell call is causing "nil is not the > > expected type, numuber". I am sure if I decided > to > > get really down to it I could patch the damn thing > > myself, but then there is the fact that the > > nodelicense, which is based on an ethernet mac > > address, only works on this laptop when the > wireless > > or is connected. Perhaps I would ask them if they > > could cut a license for the cat 5 ethernet > adapter, > > but it was so friggen hard just to get my license > > updated in the first place, i'm afraid to bother > them. > > > > AFAIK they are probably either A. doing nothing, > or B. > > rewriting mirai in C++. Probably B. Either case > the > > Izware people are a perfect example of the classic > > failures of major lisp based applications. It is > so > > friggen sad it's heartbreaking. The platform is > > essentitially totally bitchen and ripe for insane > > development. [CAD person here] It has a really > nice > > gui. HI: Human Interface (you start it by saying > > (hi:say-hi). You could link in SMLIB and write a > > constraint engine and develop your own friggen > > proengineer or autodesk inventor with a few measly > > dozen million or so. All in lisp. Integrated > > Knowledge-Based Engineering. Anything you want. > Web > > deployment, sound, anything that you can run in > > allegro...plus all the animation simulation stuff > > possible from mirai and a solid modeler. > > > > THE ULTIMATE QUESTION IS! Why did it fail! It > failed > > because the Lisp Machine failed and they just > couldn't > > keep up in a C world. > > > > I would cry myself to sleep but I still have work > to > > do. > > > > ;) AKW > > > > --- Damien Kick <dkixk(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 9, 2006, at 16:28, Corey Sweeney wrote: > > > > > > > Hey, I was wondering, what lisp extensible > > > applications do people use? > > > > > > > > Ones that I use, that I can think of right > away > > > are: > > > > text editor - emacs - > (uses > > > emacs lisp) > > > > > > Yeah, GNU Emacs or XEmacs and SLIME. > > > > > > > What other lisp extensible apps does everyone > use? > > > > > > I have used Edi Wietz's Regex Coach, actually, > to > > > help me debug > > > complicated regular expressions. It is actually > > > really cool to use > > > it for that. If one doesn't understand why a > > > particular regular > > > expression isn't matching in a way that one > expects, > > > one can just > > > start typing the regular expression, and watch > as > > > what does match is > > > highlighted. As soon as things are no longer > being > > > highlighted as > > > one wants, it's usually pretty obvious what went > > > wrong. But Regex > > > Coach isn't extensible, so that doesn't really > > > count, I suppose. > > > > > > I personally tend to use lisp mostly as a > > > programming language. As > > > most of the time I spend coding is devoted to > work, > > > and the product > > > on which I work doesn't use lisp, I don't get to > > > spend a whole lot of > > > time programming in lisp. However, I do find > > > excuses to use it. For > > > example, I have recently written a very > simplistic > > > telnet-stream and > > > my own anemic version (but it does do what I > need to > > > get done) of Don > > > Libe's Expect (because I don't much like Tcl) to > > > automate remote > > > software installations. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > chicago-lisp site list > > > chicago-lisp(a)common-lisp.net > > > > http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/chicago-lisp > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > chicago-lisp site list > > chicago-lisp(a)common-lisp.net > > > http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/chicago-lisp > > > > > > -- > ((lambda (y) (y y)) (lambda (y) (y y))) >

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[chicago-lisp] Project 1: Website
by John Quigley 09 Dec '06

09 Dec '06

I think we're all on the same page that our first project should be setting up a collaboration server where we can develop a group website with Lisp on the back-end. If this doesn't jibe with you, speak now or forever hold your peace. This will probably be a relatively quick project, just to get us off on the right foot. I had a look at Portable AllegroServe, and it looks sexy. I'm voting we develop to this. This is a potentially highly contentious decision, so let's see where other people stand. We haven't heard from Peter (our in-house web developer and possible source of free hosting). I'd prefer a Linux environment, but could settle for a BSD if that were more convenient. What are you all used to? We are looking for free hosting. If anyone besides Peter has contacts or resources, please hook us up. I'd be interested in garnering some commercial support, as well. My company (Cleversafe), has helped the LUG a great deal, and will probably be willing to get us going, as well. - John Quigley

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Re: [chicago-lisp] (no subject)
by dkixk＠earthlink.net 09 Dec '06

09 Dec '06

-----Original Message----- >From: John Quigley <jquigley(a)jquigley.com> >Sent: Dec 8, 2006 12:29 PM >To: Chicago LISP <chicago-lisp(a)common-lisp.net> >Subject: Re: [chicago-lisp] (no subject) > >That some Common Lisp implementations have poor support for optimized >functional usage is an unfortunate, but rather irrelevant, point for me. >When I need highly optimized code, I develop in C. This has nothing to do with "highly optimized code" in the sense of C being optimized. That is, tail-call optimization is not important because of its impact on run-time performace. Consider the two following versions of a naive REPL. One, I call CL because it uses LOOP, which does not exsit in Scheme, and one I call Scheme, because it uses recursion instead of iteration. (defun cl-repl () (loop for cmd from 1 do (format t "~&~A> " cmd) (princ (eval (read))))) (defun scheme-repl (&optional (cmd 1)) (format t "~&~A> " cmd) (princ (eval (read))) (scheme-repl (1+ cmd))) And lets see what happens when we run them in a CL image. PG-USER> (cl-repl) 1> nil NIL 2> (list 1 2 3) (1 2 3) 3> (list 'x 'y 'z) (X Y Z) 4> (list '|x| 'y '|z|) (x Y z) 5> And now we'll break at this point. Leaving out all of the SWANK calls in the stack trace, we find the following: 28: (READ) 29: (LET ((CMD 1)) (DECLARE (TYPE REAL CMD)) (TAGBODY EXCL::NEXT-LOOP (PROGN (FORMAT T "~&~A> " CMD) (PRINC #)) (EXCL::LOOP-REALLY-DESETQ CMD (1+ CMD)) (GO EXCL::NEXT-LOOP) EXCL::END-LOOP)) 30: (CL-REPL) And now what happens with the other version. PG-USER> (scheme-repl) 1> nil NIL 2> (list 1 2 3) (1 2 3) 3> (list 'x 'y 'z) (X Y Z) 4> (list '|x| 'y '|z|) (x Y z) 5> And the stack trace. Again, leaving out all of the SWANK calls. 28: (READ) 29: (SCHEME-REPL 5) 30: (SCHEME-REPL 4) 31: (SCHEME-REPL 3) 32: (SCHEME-REPL 2) 33: (SCHEME-REPL) So, this lisp is not using tail-call elimination for this code. If we write code like scheme-repl, we will eventually wind up with a stack overflow. This has nothing to do with whether or not the code is "highly optimized", as in runs fast as C. It has everything to do with whether or not the code will do the correct thing as a REPL. cl-repl will run in any/all CL images and will work as a REPL no matter how many command one types. scheme-repl in this lisp image will blow up after a large number of commands. In Scheme, scheme-repl would work just as well as cl-repl works in CL because Scheme requires tail-call elimination. Is this really irrelevant to you? Just an optimization issue because if one had infinite memory then the scheme-repl version in this CL would still work for an infinite number of commands? You know, just make sure to document that your user just needs to install the infinite RAM card before using your software. I can understand not wanting to quibble about a few megabytes between friends. One CL implementation only uses 1K and another uses 1M, 2K vs 2M, etc. Sure, that's just an optimization issue. But the difference between n and infinity?

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[chicago-lisp] (no subject)
by Damien Kick 09 Dec '06

09 Dec '06

John Quigley gave a presentation on using SLIME with SBCL on a Debian system yesterday during the Chicago LUG meeting. There is a PDF file version of his presentation but I forgot to jot down the URL for it. John, perhaps you'd send it to the list? Since the presentation was made using Debain, and therefore used apt-get, somebody asked about getting the packages if one didn't use Debian. The following two sites are good places for lots of general information about lisp and have links to all of the packages mentioned during the presentation: <http://common-lisp.net/> <http://www.cl-user.net/asp/root-dir>. After the presentation, John and four of us who came to the meeting mostly because of our interest in the chicago-lisp group got together for a brief chat about chicago-lisp. We talked about what to do going forward and I believe that the consensus was to try to start meeting on a more regular basis. Apparently the space being used for the CLUG meetings would be available for other chicago-lisp gatherings. John asked if everyone was mostly interested in lisp in particular or rather a broader range of topics, for instance functional languages such as Scheme or ML. There was a bit of difference of opinion on this topic and I think it might still be a bit of an open question. One suggestion was that the group might want to start host a web-site, perhaps as an excuse for a group project. A wiki as well as cliki <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ CLiki> and AllegroServer <http://allegroserve.sourceforge.net/> were discussed. Another idea was to adopt a project from Common Lisp Gardeners <http://tinyurl.com/ymgp7h>. For those who might not be familiar with the CL Gardeners (ibid): > A group of people intending to "tend the Common Lisp Garden". Their > goal is two-fold : improving the attractiveness of CL for people > who are considering using it, and providing those who want to learn > the language with a plethora of small projects, so that they can > learn it by practicing it, yet in a useful way.

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